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 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2016 06:11 pm
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RotsRot
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Hi Sealiners

I've had a few unlucky breaks since spooling up with 50 pound braid last year, and need to top it back up to max. This will require splicing, and I'm struggling with what the best method would be.

I tested with stitching the one into the other and tying each tag end with a half hitch plus a 2-turn half hitch but felt it broke too easy. Same with bimini to bimini / cat's paw...
Both methods broke at the knot.
Also checked out double-uni - worst result by far.

Google is little help, and the on-topic forums I've found here don't really point to one "best" method, plus the most recent is nearly 2 years old - I was hoping since then someone's found the "ultimate" braid to braid connection?

Two that I saw / haven't tried yet:
- 50+ turn loose Bimini to 7 turn Yucatan?
- stitched loop to Bob Sands?

Any help / advice would be most appreciated.

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 Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2016 07:14 pm
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Fishaholic
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Hi,
I also did some tests on 50lb Gator braid for backup on 30lb reels.
Bimimi is a no go, broke below 50%, cant remember exactly.
Also did the test with the spliced loop, ended off with half hitch. Broke at the halv hitch, each time. Tried different knots to end, but kept on breaking where tag was ended off. In the end I left the tag without a knot. Best result, came to just over 50lb, first time the braid itself broke, not at the knot/splice. Used knot sense to just glue the tag in place. I then used a cats paw to the bimimi loop in mono. Maybe test two loops with tag ends loose, tied together with cats paw.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2016 03:24 am
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Enigma
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Go have a look here

http://www.paulusjustfishing.com

When stitching, don't tie off with half hitches and if you really have to, then rather make a whole heap of them and pull none of them tight. If you don't and they slip even a 10th of a mm they will sever the underlying threads.

Knot sense works very well but I have found Q Bond to work better as it penetrates between the fibres and STAYS put.

We regularly test all manner of knots and found that the biminis that break first in braid are those where the half hitches are pulled super tight. Doing this actually damages the fibers of the mainline.

Strongest connection I've got on thicker and higher strand count Braids is a braid stitch with each braid going through the other aminimum of 20 times, no glue and no half hitches.

Many people do not understand the.purpose of the bimini twist. The bimini twist is simply a way to create a double Line to join two lines or line to lures together.

2 single strand 50lbs breaks higher than 100lbs. Tie the right bimini (never over tighten the elements of the twist) and keep the tag end as long as the loop. Do this on both. Now with the 3 elects of the loop and tag end tie a 7 turn uni to a 7 turn uni knot and then test the resulting join for yourself.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2016 01:18 pm
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kitefisher
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Hi Rotsrot

Just for what it is worth.Cant comment on it,as I have never tried it.Perhaps Craig(Enigma) can run a test .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6-aCEf3hsY

::tight:

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 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2016 06:51 pm
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RotsRot
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Hi Guys
Thanks very much for the feedback.
Everything I tried so far also broke where a tag end / hitch was (which I obviously pulled very tight).
Kitefisher - thank you, but that was exactly the double-uni I tried. I used 12 turns per side though, and it broke easier than anything else I did.
Enigma, I am using Sufix 832 - 8 strands... so according to what you say the strongest connection would be to stitch the 2 into each other? I must be doing something wrong though - I tried this first, stitched each into the other at least 30 times (so over 60 total), each stitch 2 or 3mm apart. But when I pulled on either end it slipped, so I put the half-hitch and 2-turn hitch on each side, then it broke there...
I had a look at the Paulus website, very informative but did not give me a clear indication of the best solution for my problem. Judging by his test results, looks like the best result he got was a 50-turn bimini / 10-turn rizutto finish to an "alpaulus" (which seems to be his modified version of the albright).

Enigma, when you say "2 single strand 50lbs breaks higher than 100lbs. Tie the right bimini (never over tighten the elements of the twist) and keep the tag end as long as the loop. Do this on both. Now with the 3 elects of the loop and tag end tie a 7 turn uni to a 7 turn uni knot and then test the resulting join for yourself.", do you mean make 2 biminis, and use the 3 elements of each (two sides of each loop as well as its tag end) to tie a uni to the other as if it's one strand?

Looks like I've got 4 or 5 different things to try / test - I'm sure one will turn out good enough. Thanks again!

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 Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2016 11:17 pm
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Enigma
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When stitching Braids, stitch short zig zags of around d 20 stitches over 20-25mm and they will lock

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 02:45 am
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AlecJ
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kitefisher wrote:
Hi Rotsrot

Just for what it is worth.Cant comment on it,as I have never tried it.Perhaps Craig(Enigma) can run a test .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6-aCEf3hsY

::tight:


this youtube video is how I do it I can not break it with normal work on 50lb braid

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 04:11 am
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Rob R
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Use your fingernail to run over the stitching so it locks up and all loose stitches are run out to the tag ends. I have stitched the above braid and others and not had a problem.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 11:50 am
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trevour
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Try this: take the thinner braid and double it for about 600mm. Then tie a 3 turn uni around the thicker braid about 200mm from the end. You will have a loop on the one side of the knot and the tag end and mainline as well as the end of the thicker braid on the other. The loop should be about 50mm and the tag end around 500mm. Attach the tag end to a sinker. On both sides of the knot grab all lines except the sinker line which is left to hang. Keep your hands close together. Spin the sinker around both lines so that the wraps form towards your mainline and the tag end of the thicker braid. Do 50 turns, but ensure both lines are tight during the process. Then pass the sinker between the two lines, and then do another 50 turns aroynd both lines again. Again pass the sinker line between the two lines, and then do two half hitches around both lines. Better, stronger and faster than any other method I know, incl stitching

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 11:52 am
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trevour
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The sinker should be about 2oz for 20lbs line, 3oz for 30lbs, 5oz for 50lbs etc

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 01:16 pm
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RotsRot
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Hi Guys
Thank you for the further advice.
I tried all the other knots mentioned in my last post last night - nothing satisfactory. So far bimini to bimini with a cat's paw definitely the best, but I'm certain something else will work better.
Didn't get around to stitching - I'll try that again tonight hopefully, as well as that modified uni for comparison. I thought it may be worthwhile to do that and finish each side with the rizutto, just check what difference it makes (if any).

Trevour - thank you, I will definitely try that. Very different to anything else I've seen / tried, but sounds pretty solid (and easier than a bloody bimini!). I'm not joining to a thicker braid though, just topping up what's left on my reel with the same (50lb Sufix 832).
What do you do with the 50mm loop when done though, just snip it off against the 3-turn uni?

A crazy idea I had in the car this morning was to use a very short piece of 70lb fluoro leader material and creating the las with an FG on either end - I've been using the FG to join my mainline to leader for months and its never let me down - when I have gotten hung up the break's always been elsewhere. Maybe not very elegant, but I figure it's worth testing, and should be slim enough to work in the spool / through the guides (I only need to top up with 100-150m and will then reverse the line so that the join sits deep in the spool, so this it won't go through when casting - just back up for the day a monster takes me for a ride).

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 02:31 pm
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kitefisher
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Rotsrot

You may just be onto something ingenious without realizing it. Some anglers fishing fixed spool and a braid to braid leader use the FG for the braid to (thicker) braid-leader connection.

Two 50lb braid FG's onto a short length of say, a 100lb Power-pro or HMP,may just be a solution.You will have to play around with the distance that the FG's are apart,but I can't see any reason why they cant be made snugly right next to one another.

If, like you say ,you then turn the line around it also wont(shouldn't), have any effect on the line peeling off your spool during the cast.

Keep us posted.::tight:

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 02:34 pm
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trevour
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Try it - same line makes no difference. If you want you can repeat the process with what I was calling the thicker line. Perhaps overkill, but seeing its not a leader that you are going to replace regularly perhaps not a bad idea. The idea can be extended to make loops as well, keeping the lines tight when making the loops gives it an advantage over a bimini, and consistency becomes easy.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 03:24 pm
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Enigma
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trevour wrote:
Try this: take the thinner braid and double it for about 600mm. Then tie a 3 turn uni around the thicker braid about 200mm from the end. You will have a loop on the one side of the knot and the tag end and mainline as well as the end of the thicker braid on the other. The loop should be about 50mm and the tag end around 500mm. Attach the tag end to a sinker. On both sides of the knot grab all lines except the sinker line which is left to hang. Keep your hands close together. Spin the sinker around both lines so that the wraps form towards your mainline and the tag end of the thicker braid. Do 50 turns, but ensure both lines are tight during the process. Then pass the sinker between the two lines, and then do another 50 turns aroynd both lines again. Again pass the sinker line between the two lines, and then do two half hitches around both lines. Better, stronger and faster than any other method I know, incl stitching

Trevour make a video on youtube or come give me instruction. Made 40 of these knots as per your instruction an tested them one on one against Paulus Bimini method and every one of these knots broke inside the turns.

I might very well be doing something wrong just as many people make half hitches to tight in the braid when tying a braid bimini.

I like how this knot presents itself but I can't get it to get over 70% of the braids breaking strain.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 18th, 2016 03:40 pm
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trevour
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I will have to show you in person Craig. As you know I like experimenting with knots, and there are a couple of little tricks I've learnt along the way. Until I do see try this. The 2nd 50 wraps in the opposite direction to the 1st (1st 50:swing the sinker towards you and second 50 away from you) Also when you put the sinker between the two lines, the end result is that it makes a loop around only one of them, let that be the weaker line, or if you making a loop then only around the mainline as apposed to the other arm coming down. When you do the wraps with the sinker it also forces the two lines to twist. I often stop, undo the twists that are not under the wraps, and even do a few in the opposite direction. This helps keep the lines straight under the wraps. I actually have a few knots Id like to show you, getting out to centurion is the problem. When I tie one end of a length of braid using this knot, and the other stitched, I always find it parts at the 1st stitch. When I tie this knot on either side, normally it parts outside the knots at random points.

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 Posted: Fri Feb 19th, 2016 10:13 am
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Fishaholic
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Enigma wrote:
Go have a look here

http://www.paulusjustfishing.com

When stitching, don't tie off with half hitches and if you really have to, then rather make a whole heap of them and pull none of them tight. If you don't and they slip even a 10th of a mm they will sever the underlying threads.

Knot sense works very well but I have found Q Bond to work better as it penetrates between the fibres and STAYS put.

We regularly test all manner of knots and found that the biminis that break first in braid are those where the half hitches are pulled super tight. Doing this actually damages the fibers of the mainline.

Strongest connection I've got on thicker and higher strand count Braids is a braid stitch with each braid going through the other aminimum of 20 times, no glue and no half hitches.

Many people do not understand the.purpose of the bimini twist. The bimini twist is simply a way to create a double Line to join two lines or line to lures together.

2 single strand 50lbs breaks higher than 100lbs. Tie the right bimini (never over tighten the elements of the twist) and keep the tag end as long as the loop. Do this on both. Now with the 3 elects of the loop and tag end tie a 7 turn uni to a 7 turn uni knot and then test the resulting join for yourself.


Hi Graig, just a question. If you do the bimimi in braid, as well as the one you use with all the tree legs. How do you end off the bimimi, if you do not use halve hitches? I understand that the halve hitches damage the main line, and make perfect sense, also where mine broke while testing.
Also what Q bond do you use, the superglue one?
Thanks.

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 Posted: Mon Feb 22nd, 2016 12:26 pm
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RotsRot
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Hi Guys
So I tried all advised above over the weekend, and my verdict's in... the best results were stitching the two ends into each other as advised by Enigma, and the FG to FG idea - tested them tied in line to each other three times and neither broke, the break was elsewhere in the line somewhere every time. I don't have a scale to test each's specific breaking point, but that both held and the line itself broke every time certainly means both are good enough.
I went with the stitching method though, much more work / time but much thinner / more supple so less fuss on my reel. And feels damned good to see my reel fully spooled again - hopefully I hook a monster and really need it soon!
Thanks again for all the advice, I certainly learnt a lot.

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 Posted: Tue Feb 23rd, 2016 12:18 am
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kitefisher
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Thanks for the feedback Rotsrot.Happy to hear the back to back FG result.Could come in handy if one doesn't have the luxury of a spare spool and need an emergency top up.

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 Posted: Tue Feb 23rd, 2016 07:27 pm
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RotsRot
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Hi Kitefisher,
My pleasure man - also thought good to know for in case one needs to do so "in the field" - beats trying to do those stitches in the wind / on the rocks. Not that I usually have a spare roll of R800 braid on me though :P.

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 Posted: Tue Feb 23rd, 2016 09:31 pm
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Enigma
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But then again sh..... Happens and if you find yourself having to cut out a frayed piece of Braid 200m into the spool you will at least have a join that you will have confidence in.

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