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willem wikkel spies
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Mana: 
Ok guys

lets keep it civil.
you are allowed to make your our statement/ opinion!
no personal attacks allowed.

lets see if we can discuss this problem and see if we can get a solution to the problem...………………….

Sharks and Edible fish

So where is the current balance in this system

Obviously some tread leads to posts like this one.
I have been thinking about this tread for a while now, and it is still a mystery for me, and for most of us.

so bare with me here, think what you have read.
and then make a useful contribution to this tread.
It must also be noted that Sealine was predominantly a Cape anglers. They tend to target sharks PE region etc and their views and findings might differ from the natal guys

lets talk about it!!! once and for all.

as a boat angler, i have been taxed more then enough in my short boating career.
it is a common fact, that sharks "black tips, Duskies and Zambo's" like to tax your fish while you are fighting it.

some times you win, with only partly taxed....
but most of the times i have lost.
7 of 8 fish to be taxed in 1 day is clearly unfair.

it is clear that there is a shark taxing problem in the natal waters from ski boats.

i have a friend, who was taxed from shore a couple of times in the st lucia yearly kingie run.
i have never been taxed from the shore apart from a shark taking my shad which i had just hooked.

shad is a bait fish for me, so it is excluded.

so, is is fair or right?
i would like to catch some fish, but due to sharks taxing me, i need to hook 10 fish, get taxed 9 times just to labd 1 fish.

we are now putting more pressure on our fish resourses as i will only start fishing harder just to land that 1 fish.
you can upgrade tackle but it is not a guarantee

does this taxing indicte that there is a imbalance in shark populations?
how do we adress this problem?
if we dod manage to catch the big taxers and cull them, what will happen?

a reef is a balanced system, the big shark is there to manage to reef system. he feeds off the reef, but he also needs to protect the reef from being invaded by smaller sharks who might decimate the fish on the reef.

i have had it off durban that a shark will follow the boat when slow trolling with live bait.
you can see teh bugger on the fish finder where he stays 8-12 meters under the boat.
so you know, that he is there following you.

so we sped off, to another area, and there again we noticed the bugger following us.

and if there is a imbalance in teh system, why are we not seeing it in other ways?

if we have so much less sharks, then the fish population will explode.
is it not teh other way around?
most anglers do not release edible fish.
so less food for the sharks and now they start to target boat anglers?

if we are over fishing edible game fish, why are we not seeing a explosion of bait fish?

Foose
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Mana: 
Just want to include something to note....


Sharks are smart, they can adapt to the're surroundings and where food would normally come from.
Just like the zambies in the breede, they know that this dark shadow floating above will bring them a chance to get a meal easier than chasing said fish that is not fighting for its life.

Sharks and all predatory species have a natural urge to attack something that is giving off a distress signal as it spells "Easy Meal" for them.
Heck even bass of equal size chase the one that is hooked around biting at its tail.

My personal feeling would be that you are on a boat over a reef where the apex predator is the shark and that is his domain. Should you enter his domain he will take you up on the free meal you are offering.
Nothing complex about it just nature doing its thing.

Side note: I have gotten taxed before therefore I understand its not a lekka feeling but ultimately something you have to realize might or might not happen while out fishing.

I believe the shark numbers are actually in big trouble looking at how many are killed every year and any Ecosystem will collapse without an apex predator in the picture.

Spool-Song
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30-40 years ago, I remember reading the catch reports from the shore based competitions, and how the bulk of the catch consisted of edibles in the early days, and then later it changed to in-eds, particularly young dusky sharks (ridge back greys). The duskys made up more than 90% of the competition catches in the 80s. I'm not sure if that is still true, but the theory at the time was that the inshore shark netting culled the large sharks and allowed the grays to breed in an inshore safe haven.

tubs the sea saver
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Spool-Song wrote:
30-40 years ago, I remember reading the catch reports from the shore based competitions, and how the bulk of the catch consisted of edibles in the early days, and then later it changed to in-eds, particularly young dusky sharks (ridge back greys). The duskys made up more than 90% of the competition catches in the 80s. I'm not sure if that is still true, but the theory at the time was that the inshore shark netting culled the large sharks and allowed the grays to breed in an inshore safe haven.

I believe that this is the issue, the larger sharks that would normally keep the smaller ones in check have been removed from the system thus allowing the smaller and medium sharks to become a plague. Human interference caused the issued in the first place.

Noddy
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Mana: 
1. I love sharks - within safety measures (something between me and it - not me in its stomach.
2. Is the discussion focused on the KZN area?
- This would change a lot of opinions/facts. As the scenario differs to the rest of the SA coastline, and then differs to the coastal areas world-wide.

All these panty-in-knots comments... :?:shark:puke

Pylstert
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If you read old books like Strike, the shark taxing problem is discussed there as well. I think there are just way less edible fish due to over fishing so it appears to be a bigger problem and shark nets in KZN wiping out large sharks that prey on smaller ones. In the Cape seals eat your fish.

BIKS
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Cant beat them eat them :)

willem wikkel spies
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Mana: 
the discussion can be for the whole of the south African coast line.

speaking to Miles, they do not seem to have a tax problem in the cape!

it is a fact that the sharks in KZN seems to be a problem by taxing hooked fish.

north at St lucia it was dolphins which liked to take hooked fish "snoek"

I agree that man, did cause the problem.
being taxed is not fun.
it seems like they just keep on taxing whatever you hook!!!
that aint fair!

Spool-Song
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Foose wrote:
Just want to include something to note....


Sharks are smart, they can adapt to the're surroundings and where food would normally come from.
Just like the zambies in the breede, they know that this dark shadow floating above will bring them a chance to get a meal easier than chasing said fish that is not fighting for its life.

Sharks and all predatory species have a natural urge to attack something that is giving off a distress signal as it spells "Easy Meal" for them.
Heck even bass of equal size chase the one that is hooked around biting at its tail.

My personal feeling would be that you are on a boat over a reef where the apex predator is the shark and that is his domain. Should you enter his domain he will take you up on the free meal you are offering.
Nothing complex about it just nature doing its thing.

Side note: I have gotten taxed before therefore I understand its not a lekka feeling but ultimately something you have to realize might or might not happen while out fishing.

I believe the shark numbers are actually in big trouble looking at how many are killed every year and any Ecosystem will collapse without an apex predator in the picture.


((goodp_

I remember as a youngster, doing a dive over Protea Banks on the KZN South Coast. Its an awesome reef that holds a lot of nice fish...but, there are a lot of sharks too. That's what we dived there for in the first place. The funny thing, was that we were warned, that as the boat stops, the Zambi's gather underneath it, looking for hooked bottom fish. I though this was crazy, but sure enough, as the engines of the dive boat cut out, we went over, and as we approached the bottom at 35m, there was a Zambi waiting patiently beneath us for a meal. As we drifted, the dive boat follows the bubble trail, and during the dive several Zambis followed us, with the boat moving above us.

I don't think there are more of them, they are just adapting and evolving with changing circumstances.

Further, the notion that their numbers are increasing is dubious, as it is rare for slow growing apex predators to suddenly increase in numbers.

willem wikkel spies
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forgot to mention....

spoke to a spearo.
he says they will not see any sharks around, then suddenly when the spear gun is fired, sharks just appear out of no where.

so it is clear that they are clever and adjust!!!

yacoob
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Ok, my take on it is that the sharks have the right to tax us as much as they want to. It's their domain.

We have a similar , if not less frequent situation at langebaan lagoon when fishing for cob at night. I know the feeling, been there, done that, and will gladly still be doing it as long as i'm allowed to. All this means is that i have to outsmart it. If sharkey wins, tough.....
In falsebay we have the opposite problem. The great whites we used to see at our fishing grounds have all but disappeared. We had a few orca's here and during that time, a few GW's washed up on our shores with their livers bitten out. It seems, and i could be very wrong.... that since the GW population have decreased, the seal and penguin population exploded. Now they're decimating the fish stocks. I believe they cause a lot more damage to our eco system than sharks can.

mrcricket
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yacoob wrote:
Ok, my take on it is that the sharks have the right to tax us as much as they want to. It's their domain.

We have a similar , if not less frequent situation at langebaan lagoon when fishing for cob at night. I know the feeling, been there, done that, and will gladly still be doing it as long as i'm allowed to. All this means is that i have to outsmart it. If sharkey wins, tough.....
In falsebay we have the opposite problem. The great whites we used to see at our fishing grounds have all but disappeared. We had a few orca's here and during that time, a few GW's washed up on our shores with their livers bitten out. It seems, and i could be very wrong.... that since the GW population have decreased, the seal and penguin population exploded. Now they're decimating the fish stocks. I believe they cause a lot more damage to our eco system than sharks can.



Spot on. Since you’re in sharks domain,you get taxed. Take it on the chin like a man and keep fishing.

Stefan001
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A few weeks ago I was in KZN and fished off the ski with my buddy Duane from Reel excitement.
We had fish taxed off the barge and sharks follow our fish up from the deep. We had alot more success that other okes by putting the ratchet off and freespooling the fish away from the wreck.
The fish was then pulled hard to get it up to the surface asap.

ALL the okes  hooking fish on the barge and fighting them on it in that time were taxed... Box smart and land your fish as far as possible off any structure.

Kenty
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;)Let me be the fly in the ointment...the okies who are REALLY complaining about the sharks grabbing their fish ..is not the ones who are selling their fish they catch???...ek vra ma net??...I mean fuel for an outboard is pricey or rather an outboard is thirsty...:cool:

willem wikkel spies
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yacoob wrote:
Ok, my take on it is that the sharks have the right to tax us as much as they want to. It's their domain.

We have a similar , if not less frequent situation at langebaan lagoon when fishing for cob at night. I know the feeling, been there, done that, and will gladly still be doing it as long as i'm allowed to. All this means is that i have to outsmart it. If sharkey wins, tough.....
In falsebay we have the opposite problem. The great whites we used to see at our fishing grounds have all but disappeared. We had a few orca's here and during that time, a few GW's washed up on our shores with their livers bitten out. It seems, and i could be very wrong.... that since the GW population have decreased, the seal and penguin population exploded. Now they're decimating the fish stocks. I believe they cause a lot more damage to our eco system than sharks can.


so a explosion in penquin and seal population due to less white sharks.
so it is hand in hand and now visible to the naked eye.

but we cannot see this off durban!

Pylstert
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the penguin population has exploded??? No it hasn't, it is declining rapidly https://www.iol.co.za/weekend-argus/african-penguin-population-numbers-on-the-decrease-17765917

It has been listed as endangered recently.
According to scientific publications, fur seal populations have remained the same, but colonies have shifted around, mainly in Namibia though, False Bay population seems to have declined a bit.
Also other recent studies have shown that cow sharks are now praying on seal in False Bay.
I recall not long ago on Sealine how whites were seen as a pest, too many of them etc etc. Now in False Bay there is none.

Whenever people catch no fish it is always the sharks, seals or something else, never us catching (&^%$ load of fish ::tight:

Last edited on Mon Mar 11th, 2019 01:30 pm by Pylstert

Pylstert
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willem wikkel spies wrote: yacoob wrote:
Ok, my take on it is that the sharks have the right to tax us as much as they want to. It's their domain.

We have a similar , if not less frequent situation at langebaan lagoon when fishing for cob at night. I know the feeling, been there, done that, and will gladly still be doing it as long as i'm allowed to. All this means is that i have to outsmart it. If sharkey wins, tough.....
In falsebay we have the opposite problem. The great whites we used to see at our fishing grounds have all but disappeared. We had a few orca's here and during that time, a few GW's washed up on our shores with their livers bitten out. It seems, and i could be very wrong.... that since the GW population have decreased, the seal and penguin population exploded. Now they're decimating the fish stocks. I believe they cause a lot more damage to our eco system than sharks can.


so a explosion in penquin and seal population due to less white sharks.
so it is hand in hand and now visible to the naked eye.

but we cannot see this off durban
What can't you see in Durban?

willem wikkel spies
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Presies dit!!!!

there is no shortage of sharks off Durban.

the lack of great white sharks off cape caused a explosion in cape fur seals and penguins.

if sharks are endangered as claimed, then why do we have this problem.

this a a chain driven/ domino effect if apex is missing etc.

Pylstert
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Willem please read, the lack of great whites in the Cape has not caused an explosion in the penguin and seal populations. Penguins are in decline.

Great whites have only been absent for a very short period, I can send you a very good scientific publication based on thousands of observations of sharks.

Pylstert
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And here is the abstract from a study done on catches in the shark nets:


Population status of 14 shark species caught in the protective gillnets off KwaZulu–Natal beaches, South Africa, 1978–2003 Sheldon F. J. Dudley A C and Colin A. Simpfendorfer B + Author Affiliations Marine and Freshwater Research 57(2) 225-240 https://doi.org/10.1071/MF05156
Submitted: 22 August 2005  Accepted: 17 January 2006   Published: 10 March 2006
Shark nets have been set off the beaches of KwaZulu–Natal, South Africa, since 1952 to reduce the risk of shark attack. The nets fish in fixed localities 400 m from shore and both directly affect local shark populations and act as fisheries-independent monitoring devices. Reliable catch information at the species level was available for the period 1978–2003. Trends in catch rate and size were used to assess the population status of 14 commonly caught shark species. In addition, a demographic modelling approach was used in conjunction with the catch information to assess the potential effect of the nets on populations. Catch rates of four species (Carcharhinus leucas, C. limbatus, Sphyrna lewini and S. mokarran) showed a significant decline, as did the mean or median length of three species (Carcharhinus amboinensis, C. limbatus and female Carcharodon carcharias). For three species that showed declining catch rates or length the potential effect of the shark nets was assessed to be low, suggesting that other sources of catch were responsible for the declining status. The potential effect of the shark nets was assessed to be high for two species (Carcharhinus obscurus and Carcharias taurus, neither of which showed declines in catch rate or length), because of very low intrinsic rates of population increase.

Last edited on Mon Mar 11th, 2019 02:24 pm by Pylstert

_zaahid
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Mana: 
i agree with this statement about sharks being smart animals. ((goodp_ ((goodp_

there was a story i few years ago about sharks biting people on the hip when they went free diving to view sharks. It was found out that the poeple hosting the tours would carry a bag of bait on their hip and feed the sharks from that bag to make sure that they stay in the region they were in. What was later notices was that when people with diving in those areas without the tour guides that had the bait on their hip, the sharks would bite the divers on their right hip, which is where the bait would be carried, thus showing that sharks can adapt to the situation.
(i haven't been able to find the video documentary about it, but when i do, i'll update this post)

taking from this, i'm sure sharks in specific areas that are often fished know that if a boat is close by, there will be an easy meal, thus they follow the boat and tax the anglers...

just shows that every animal on this planet has the ability to learn patterns and adapt to the situations they are faced with

willem wikkel spies
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Pylstert wrote:
Willem please read, the lack of great whites in the Cape has not caused an explosion in the penguin and seal populations. Penguins are in decline.

Great whites have only been absent for a very short period, I can send you a very good scientific publication based on thousands of observations of sharks.


maybe not penguins, but definitely cape fur seals.
which means that there aint enough white sharks there.

but whites are not the problems here.

Zambo's, duskies and black tip sharks seems to be a taxing problem in KZN.

willem wikkel spies
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Pylstert wrote:
And here is the abstract from a study done on catches in the shark nets:


Population status of 14 shark species caught in the protective gillnets off KwaZulu–Natal beaches, South Africa, 1978–2003 Sheldon F. J. Dudley A C and Colin A. Simpfendorfer B + Author Affiliations Marine and Freshwater Research 57(2) 225-240 https://doi.org/10.1071/MF05156
Submitted: 22 August 2005  Accepted: 17 January 2006   Published: 10 March 2006
Shark nets have been set off the beaches of KwaZulu–Natal, South Africa, since 1952 to reduce the risk of shark attack. The nets fish in fixed localities 400 m from shore and both directly affect local shark populations and act as fisheries-independent monitoring devices. Reliable catch information at the species level was available for the period 1978–2003. Trends in catch rate and size were used to assess the population status of 14 commonly caught shark species. In addition, a demographic modelling approach was used in conjunction with the catch information to assess the potential effect of the nets on populations. Catch rates of four species (Carcharhinus leucas, C. limbatus, Sphyrna lewini and S. mokarran) showed a significant decline, as did the mean or median length of three species (Carcharhinus amboinensis, C. limbatus and female Carcharodon carcharias). For three species that showed declining catch rates or length the potential effect of the shark nets was assessed to be low, suggesting that other sources of catch were responsible for the declining status. The potential effect of the shark nets was assessed to be high for two species (Carcharhinus obscurus and Carcharias taurus, neither of which showed declines in catch rate or length), because of very low intrinsic rates of population increase.


The above is noted, not that I do know the scientific names of the species by heart.
had a look and it is the: dusky shark, black tip shark, Zambesi shark, raggie, pig eye shark and the great white

but also note the date of that report and that it is Aussie web page.


it was 13 years ago!!!
surely a updated report should shed more light on the current situation?

the guys at Ushaka wanted the skiboat anglers to complete a questionare with regards to fish being taxed.
sadly the guys did not complete it/ or kept it updated.
this let to the report on taxing being stopped.

so we do not have a completed survey report which is sad!!!

this exact discussion was once on another forum which led to the banning of users.
it is strange that this tread is moving along so slowly.
i did expect more fireworks.
it might just pick up speed later in the week.

willem wikkel spies
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Ok some more info:

a friend of mine resides in Durban, ok I have a few there....

he has pictures of great white sharks which were caught by the dozen in Durban harbor.

his dad is still alive and he told me what was used to catch the great beasts.
great white sharks were plenty in the Durban harbor due to the whaling station, back in the old days.

if you wanted to catch a shark, then all you needed to do is get the skin section of a whale and you would go tight.

but thinking about this.... did man, create a hole for himself back then?

no apex whites to control the lower order!!!
from there things just went pear shaped and now we sit with another problem.


it must also be further noted that:
most anglers fish for edible fish.
not all edible fish are returned to the water, but at least 98% of sharks and ineds are returned.
so in essence, less game fish/ food etc for the predators.

it seems like they have adapted well, in finding scarce food, or that they are just lazy as they know food will be coming soon on a platter!!

so eventually when we have all the facts/ opinions in, then will we be able to appreciate the situation.

when we are there, what do we need to do, to correct the problem.
what is the solution? to the problem?

my dad always give me great advise and that is:

address the problem, not the person when dealing with humans.

the question here is, who is the problem here and how is it rectified?

I do not know this answer, do you have it?
I will not stop fishing for game fish from the boat!!!!actually i will only try harder and start making plans to see, what i can do, to prevent being taxed.
;)

Pylstert
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Hi Willem I think you are probably on a good theory with "less food for predators" and don't discount the impact the shark nets are having. they would have taken out far more sharks than the guys fishing at the whaling station.

Getting back to the seals, particularly around Cape Town, the most recent research show the population decreased from 2009 to 2013. This research was done by a person with a Phd on seal population dynamics, he has studied them all over their range. Doubt they would have dramatically jumped up now. A species population dynamics is not simply related to predation, there are many other factors especially things like how much food they are getting. You again may have a situation where seals can't get food easily enough so now they are going after fishermans catch, but in fact they have been doing this forever and a day so it is probably hard to tell if it is worse now.

Regarding the shark population study in KZN, the fact that the lead auther is from the CSIRO in Australia is neither here nor there

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Pylstert wrote:
And here is the abstract from a study done on catches in the shark nets:


Population status of 14 shark species caught in the protective gillnets off KwaZulu–Natal beaches, South Africa, 1978–2003 Sheldon F. J. Dudley A C and Colin A. Simpfendorfer B + Author Affiliations Marine and Freshwater Research 57(2) 225-240 https://doi.org/10.1071/MF05156
Submitted: 22 August 2005  Accepted: 17 January 2006   Published: 10 March 2006
Shark nets have been set off the beaches of KwaZulu–Natal, South Africa, since 1952 to reduce the risk of shark attack. The nets fish in fixed localities 400 m from shore and both directly affect local shark populations and act as fisheries-independent monitoring devices. Reliable catch information at the species level was available for the period 1978–2003. Trends in catch rate and size were used to assess the population status of 14 commonly caught shark species. In addition, a demographic modelling approach was used in conjunction with the catch information to assess the potential effect of the nets on populations. Catch rates of four species (Zambizi, Black tip, Great ans scalloped hammer head) showed a significant decline, as did the mean or median length of three species (Pig-eye/java shark, black tip and female Great white). For three species that showed declining catch rates or length the potential effect of the shark nets was assessed to be low, suggesting that other sources of catch were responsible for the declining status. The potential effect of the shark nets was assessed to be high for two species (Dusky shark, Raggie), neither of which showed declines in catch rate or length), because of very low intrinsic rates of population increase.


Latin to English;)

Spool-Song
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Regarding the penguin populations:

In 1900, it was estimated that about 1.5-million birds lived on Dassen Island alone. There are now only about 21 000 breeding pairs of African penguins left in the world and they are listed as "Endangered".

So a more than 100-fold decrease in a species over the last hundred years is a massive decline and a huge cause of concern.

This decline is caused by human activity.

TimJan
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Mana: 
Ok put it like this.

If you are fishing from shore and there are a million peckers around and your bait does not last a minute in the water before its gone do you suggest calling someone with a trek net to come past and remove all the peckers so that you can fish? Or do you move spots or pack up for the day?


Yes I get it that it is irritating for you to loose a fish to a shark but its your choice to fish where they are.

Adapt your fishing to your conditions don't adapt your conditions to your fishing

The attitude of there is too many of them so lets kill them is exactly the logic that gave us our current fishing stocks. Our grand parents caught allot of fish with zero regulations and thought the seas are an endless supply and because they caught fish boats realized that if you throw out a net you can catch even more than just a rod and reel a couple of centuries later and we have our current fish stocks. If you look back at the OLD days you think they were so lucky if only they protected a bit we would still have fish. Now think what will your grand/great grand kids say of our current fish stocks? Will they say WOW grandad was so lucky to fish as there is nothing now, or will they say wow they were so unlucky as now we have tons of fish to catch?

If you only live for yourself and for now go ahead and kill everything you don't want kill dolphins, seals, sharks, penguins as they eat fish and are in the way of your fishing.
If not think about what you are doing and the effect for the future if everybody does what you do.

And no I am not a bunny huger I fish and if I can i do keep for the pan. But I wont keep under size and I wont ever go over quota and more gets released than what ends up in the pan.

If you go to the doctor and say it hurts every time you stab a knife in your leg the doctor will tell you to stop doing it. Not that all knifes must be banned or to amputate your leg then it wont hurt anymore. Its also not a good idea to take massive amounts of pain killers just so that you can continue to stab yourself in the leg without pain.

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TimJan wrote:
Ok put it like this.

If you are fishing from shore and there are a million peckers around and your bait does not last a minute in the water before its gone do you suggest calling someone with a trek net to come past and remove all the peckers so that you can fish? Or do you move spots or pack up for the day?


Yes I get it that it is irritating for you to loose a fish to a shark but its your choice to fish where they are.

Adapt your fishing to your conditions don't adapt your conditions to your fishing

The attitude of there is too many of them so lets kill them is exactly the logic that gave us our current fishing stocks. Our grand parents caught allot of fish with zero regulations and thought the seas are an endless supply and because they caught fish boats realized that if you throw out a net you can catch even more than just a rod and reel a couple of centuries later and we have our current fish stocks. If you look back at the OLD days you think they were so lucky if only they protected a bit we would still have fish. Now think what will your grand/great grand kids say of our current fish stocks? Will they say WOW grandad was so lucky to fish as there is nothing now, or will they say wow they were so unlucky as now we have tons of fish to catch?

If you only live for yourself and for now go ahead and kill everything you don't want kill dolphins, seals, sharks, penguins as they eat fish and are in the way of your fishing.
If not think about what you are doing and the effect for the future if everybody does what you do.

And no I am not a bunny huger I fish and if I can i do keep for the pan. But I wont keep under size and I wont ever go over quota and more gets released than what ends up in the pan.

If you go to the doctor and say it hurts every time you stab a knife in your leg the doctor will tell you to stop doing it. Not that all knifes must be banned or to amputate your leg then it wont hurt anymore. Its also not a good idea to take massive amounts of pain killers just so that you can continue to stab yourself in the leg without pain.


((goodp_

Kenty
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TimJan wrote:
Ok put it like this.

If you are fishing from shore and there are a million peckers around and your bait does not last a minute in the water before its gone do you suggest calling someone with a trek net to come past and remove all the peckers so that you can fish? Or do you move spots or pack up for the day?


Yes I get it that it is irritating for you to loose a fish to a shark but its your choice to fish where they are.

Adapt your fishing to your conditions don't adapt your conditions to your fishing

The attitude of there is too many of them so lets kill them is exactly the logic that gave us our current fishing stocks. Our grand parents caught allot of fish with zero regulations and thought the seas are an endless supply and because they caught fish boats realized that if you throw out a net you can catch even more than just a rod and reel a couple of centuries later and we have our current fish stocks. If you look back at the OLD days you think they were so lucky if only they protected a bit we would still have fish. Now think what will your grand/great grand kids say of our current fish stocks? Will they say WOW grandad was so lucky to fish as there is nothing now, or will they say wow they were so unlucky as now we have tons of fish to catch?

If you only live for yourself and for now go ahead and kill everything you don't want kill dolphins, seals, sharks, penguins as they eat fish and are in the way of your fishing.
If not think about what you are doing and the effect for the future if everybody does what you do.

And no I am not a bunny huger I fish and if I can i do keep for the pan. But I wont keep under size and I wont ever go over quota and more gets released than what ends up in the pan.

If you go to the doctor and say it hurts every time you stab a knife in your leg the doctor will tell you to stop doing it. Not that all knifes must be banned or to amputate your leg then it wont hurt anymore. Its also not a good idea to take massive amounts of pain killers just so that you can continue to stab yourself in the leg without pain.
((goodp_..VERY VERY well written Sir..SALUTE!!!

Pylstert
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TimJan wrote: Ok put it like this.

If you are fishing from shore and there are a million peckers around and your bait does not last a minute in the water before its gone do you suggest calling someone with a trek net to come past and remove all the peckers so that you can fish? Or do you move spots or pack up for the day?


Yes I get it that it is irritating for you to loose a fish to a shark but its your choice to fish where they are.

Adapt your fishing to your conditions don't adapt your conditions to your fishing

The attitude of there is too many of them so lets kill them is exactly the logic that gave us our current fishing stocks. Our grand parents caught allot of fish with zero regulations and thought the seas are an endless supply and because they caught fish boats realized that if you throw out a net you can catch even more than just a rod and reel a couple of centuries later and we have our current fish stocks. If you look back at the OLD days you think they were so lucky if only they protected a bit we would still have fish. Now think what will your grand/great grand kids say of our current fish stocks? Will they say WOW grandad was so lucky to fish as there is nothing now, or will they say wow they were so unlucky as now we have tons of fish to catch?

If you only live for yourself and for now go ahead and kill everything you don't want kill dolphins, seals, sharks, penguins as they eat fish and are in the way of your fishing.
If not think about what you are doing and the effect for the future if everybody does what you do.

And no I am not a bunny huger I fish and if I can i do keep for the pan. But I wont keep under size and I wont ever go over quota and more gets released than what ends up in the pan.

If you go to the doctor and say it hurts every time you stab a knife in your leg the doctor will tell you to stop doing it. Not that all knifes must be banned or to amputate your leg then it wont hurt anymore. Its also not a good idea to take massive amounts of pain killers just so that you can continue to stab yourself in the leg without pain.

((goodp_((goodp_((goodp_

D5
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I have been fishing offshore for many years .Sharks learned over years that boat means food and I noticed that it happens lot more lately . Trap stick will catch Shark more likely then any other fish . Losing fish to sharks does not bother me that much but damaged or lost expensive tackle does.
When I buy a boat I would invest in Ocean Guardian for boat for few reasons .
First is to reduce taxing , secondly we like to duck ourself next to the boat in the open on a hot day to cool down , third is when you need to do no 2 and have to hang between outboards with fear what hangs below the boat .
It’s a very expensive device but I think it’s worth it . And if not for all earlier 3 reasons - it would be for this one :
It could save lot of Marlin and billfish during the release as sharks attack it right at the boat .
My 2c

willem wikkel spies
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TimJan.

a interesting written reply.

not even the peckers are around any more!!!
thus there is a much bigger problem then what meets the eye.

never did I advocate to kill any or all of the sharks.
we need to find a solution to the problem.

boating and fishing from boats have increased 10x fold in the last 10 years.
so more pressure is being placed on our fishing resources.

thus fishing pressure on edible fish is increasing
thus less fish to catch and to take home.

the cake is only so big.
everyone needs want a piece of the cake!!!
we need to look after the cake, and we need to prevent some buggers from taking more then their share of the cake...lol



it's all going to go down hill from here.

TimJan
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Hi Willem

My reply was not directed at you in any way.

I do believe the fishery is showing big warning signs as its under massive pressure especially from the fishing that is happening next door in Mozambique now. Not even mentioning the effects of pollution.

But this isn't a new problem I know in witsand its been known from the 70' and I am sure before then that you get taxed by the Zambies if they are around. Also know that for more than 20 years on the kzn coast I heard that the sharks are trained to come by the sound of a screaming reels/ boats stopping.

Look at it like this. If a shark eats his fill early in the morning he will maybe sit around and take one or 2 fish but if he is hungry he will stick around all day. Remember that boats are not permanently on the water but sharks eat constantly so if you don't get all your food before the boat arrives well then the easy meal wins.

Also to find 10 sick/injured/slow fish to eat per day is allot easier between 10 million than 1000 fish.

How you get past it as an angler I have no idea?
In witsand after you get taxed you move location that sometimes gets the shark's to go and sit under another boat and gives you a chance but the fishing has been so bad the last season I will start to be cautious to go into the water. We all know there hasn't been a single attack in the breede but if the food runs out you don't know what is next on the menu?

willem wikkel spies
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TimJan, no worries

3 years ago I was on virginia barge off Durban.

10 pick ups, 8 fights
1x reefed me7x fish taxed!!!!
in one day!!!

thought that by the 3rd they would be full, big mistake

in that week alone I lost close to R 1k in hooks.

that's how many times I got taxed.

I even broke a rod on the gunnel due to pure frustration.

one cannot fish like this!!!!

I did make changes after that week as I went the following month with a plan.

we managed to boat 2x tunas 16,17 kg

lost a bigger fish when the reel I used, stripped gears due to the pressure.

then I lost a big tuna to the zambo!!!! the tuna head alone was 7kg.

sad times indeed, but good times in between.

so we need to start fishing more clever I believe.

Fanie Crause
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We fished Protea bank out of Shellybeach a few years back chunking and drifting for Tuna.The fish were wild those 10 to 20kg yellowfin were everywhere. I think in total we got taxed over 10 times landing about 4 fish before the fish moved on. I was fighting a yellowfin and a massive massive Tygershark came out under the boat within touching distance (I screamed like a 6 year old girl) and simply strolled on down to eat my tuna. We saw the same shark(monster) on two more drifts showing that they do follow the boats. Stephan001 is right either freespool the fish when you feel it changing gears to avoid the shark or use heavy tackle and as soon as you get the bite drive the fish of the reef.

yacoob
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With all due respect, I dont give a $#!% what the researchers say. I've been fishing particular areas of false bay for the last 10 years. I could almost predict great white sightings to my crew and, I could even identify a few of them. For the last few years, the decline in great whites and the increase in the seal AND penguin population is crystal clear to me, my buddies and other boaters who frequent Falsebay. I'm NOT a keyboard fisherman, I go out enough times to know my areas very well. We find seals and penguins where we never did before. It doesn't bother me in the least because as i said in my 1st post, its their domain. If i want the fish, I put in the effort and the time, and if sharkey wins, i take it on the chin and try again.

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Could the increase in seal and penguin sightings not be due to them being more "free" to move about and approach boats now that there are less GWs around, and not necessarily due to an increase in populations?

yacoob
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Houtarm wrote:
Could the increase in seal and penguin sightings not be due to them being more "free" to move about and approach boats now that there are less GWs around, and not necessarily due to an increase in populations?

Houtarm, You're right. This is part of the reason why we see more seals and penguins.

Pylstert
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yacoob wrote: With all due respect, I dont give a $#!% what the researchers say. I've been fishing particular areas of false bay for the last 10 years. I could almost predict great white sightings to my crew and, I could even identify a few of them. For the last few years, the decline in great whites and the increase in the seal AND penguin population is crystal clear to me, my buddies and other boaters who frequent Falsebay. I'm NOT a keyboard fisherman, I go out enough times to know my areas very well. We find seals and penguins where we never did before. It doesn't bother me in the least because as i said in my 1st post, its their domain. If i want the fish, I put in the effort and the time, and if sharkey wins, i take it on the chin and try again.


Go and count the seals and penguins then and tell the researchers they are wrong. They must be spending too much time on keyboards instead of spending days and years counting penguins and seals, you don't think it is possible that seal and penguin colonies have shifted and you just by chance see more where fish? Overall, they have declined though. You also have to wonder what the octopus fishery has on the seals of False Bay because they eat a lot of octopus and these are now being harvested commercially.

Last edited on Thu Mar 14th, 2019 08:53 am by Pylstert

tubs the sea saver
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mrcricket wrote:
yacoob wrote:
Ok, my take on it is that the sharks have the right to tax us as much as they want to. It's their domain.

We have a similar , if not less frequent situation at langebaan lagoon when fishing for cob at night. I know the feeling, been there, done that, and will gladly still be doing it as long as i'm allowed to. All this means is that i have to outsmart it. If sharkey wins, tough.....
In falsebay we have the opposite problem. The great whites we used to see at our fishing grounds have all but disappeared. We had a few orca's here and during that time, a few GW's washed up on our shores with their livers bitten out. It seems, and i could be very wrong.... that since the GW population have decreased, the seal and penguin population exploded. Now they're decimating the fish stocks. I believe they cause a lot more damage to our eco system than sharks can.



Spot on. Since you’re in sharks domain,you get taxed. Take it on the chin like a man and keep fishing.


So heres the bigger issue, a good example is Geelbek which are very migratory spending time in the cape and then move up the KZN coast line, the daily limit is 2 pp per day. Now if you catch 10 geelbek and 8 get taxed it effectively means you have taken out 10 and therefore you are over the limit. I dont when last we have good number of these fish and anglers dont realize that Taxed fish are part of their quota.

yacoob
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tubs the sea saver wrote:
mrcricket wrote:
yacoob wrote:
Ok, my take on it is that the sharks have the right to tax us as much as they want to. It's their domain.

We have a similar , if not less frequent situation at langebaan lagoon when fishing for cob at night. I know the feeling, been there, done that, and will gladly still be doing it as long as i'm allowed to. All this means is that i have to outsmart it. If sharkey wins, tough.....
In falsebay we have the opposite problem. The great whites we used to see at our fishing grounds have all but disappeared. We had a few orca's here and during that time, a few GW's washed up on our shores with their livers bitten out. It seems, and i could be very wrong.... that since the GW population have decreased, the seal and penguin population exploded. Now they're decimating the fish stocks. I believe they cause a lot more damage to our eco system than sharks can.



Spot on. Since you’re in sharks domain,you get taxed. Take it on the chin like a man and keep fishing.


So heres the bigger issue, a good example is Geelbek which are very migratory spending time in the cape and then move up the KZN coast line, the daily limit is 2 pp per day. Now if you catch 10 geelbek and 8 get taxed it effectively means you have taken out 10 and therefore you are over the limit. I dont when last we have good number of these fish and anglers dont realize that Taxed fish are part of their quota.


Heya tubs, I respectfully beg to differ. daily quota's are only applicable to species in your possession. if it was a you say, then every hook up should form part of the quota ;)

Last edited on Fri Mar 15th, 2019 06:17 am by yacoob

yacoob
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Pylstert wrote:
yacoob wrote: With all due respect, I dont give a $#!% what the researchers say. I've been fishing particular areas of false bay for the last 10 years. I could almost predict great white sightings to my crew and, I could even identify a few of them. For the last few years, the decline in great whites and the increase in the seal AND penguin population is crystal clear to me, my buddies and other boaters who frequent Falsebay. I'm NOT a keyboard fisherman, I go out enough times to know my areas very well. We find seals and penguins where we never did before. It doesn't bother me in the least because as i said in my 1st post, its their domain. If i want the fish, I put in the effort and the time, and if sharkey wins, i take it on the chin and try again.


Go and count the seals and penguins then and tell the researchers they are wrong. They must be spending too much time on keyboards instead of spending days and years counting penguins and seals, you don't think it is possible that seal and penguin colonies have shifted and you just by chance see more where fish? Overall, they have declined though. You also have to wonder what the octopus fishery has on the seals of False Bay because they eat a lot of octopus and these are now being harvested commercially.


Pylstert... My post was not directed AT you but rather in a general sense, however, I agree that worldwide seal and penguin populations are being decimated, but in case you missed it, I was referring specifically to Falsebay. Thats it. Klaar gepraat;)

Pylstert
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yacoob wrote: Pylstert wrote:
yacoob wrote: With all due respect, I dont give a $#!% what the researchers say. I've been fishing particular areas of false bay for the last 10 years. I could almost predict great white sightings to my crew and, I could even identify a few of them. For the last few years, the decline in great whites and the increase in the seal AND penguin population is crystal clear to me, my buddies and other boaters who frequent Falsebay. I'm NOT a keyboard fisherman, I go out enough times to know my areas very well. We find seals and penguins where we never did before. It doesn't bother me in the least because as i said in my 1st post, its their domain. If i want the fish, I put in the effort and the time, and if sharkey wins, i take it on the chin and try again.


Go and count the seals and penguins then and tell the researchers they are wrong. They must be spending too much time on keyboards instead of spending days and years counting penguins and seals, you don't think it is possible that seal and penguin colonies have shifted and you just by chance see more where fish? Overall, they have declined though. You also have to wonder what the octopus fishery has on the seals of False Bay because they eat a lot of octopus and these are now being harvested commercially.


Pylstert... My post was not directed AT you but rather in a general sense, however, I agree that worldwide seal and penguin populations are being decimated, but in case you missed it, I was referring specifically to Falsebay. Thats it. Klaar gepraat;)

((goodp_ reg so meer visvang en minder praat :-) :-) totally agree :-) :-)

tubs the sea saver
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yacoob wrote:
tubs the sea saver wrote:
mrcricket wrote:
yacoob wrote:
Ok, my take on it is that the sharks have the right to tax us as much as they want to. It's their domain.

We have a similar , if not less frequent situation at langebaan lagoon when fishing for cob at night. I know the feeling, been there, done that, and will gladly still be doing it as long as i'm allowed to. All this means is that i have to outsmart it. If sharkey wins, tough.....
In falsebay we have the opposite problem. The great whites we used to see at our fishing grounds have all but disappeared. We had a few orca's here and during that time, a few GW's washed up on our shores with their livers bitten out. It seems, and i could be very wrong.... that since the GW population have decreased, the seal and penguin population exploded. Now they're decimating the fish stocks. I believe they cause a lot more damage to our eco system than sharks can.



Spot on. Since you’re in sharks domain,you get taxed. Take it on the chin like a man and keep fishing.


So heres the bigger issue, a good example is Geelbek which are very migratory spending time in the cape and then move up the KZN coast line, the daily limit is 2 pp per day. Now if you catch 10 geelbek and 8 get taxed it effectively means you have taken out 10 and therefore you are over the limit. I dont when last we have good number of these fish and anglers dont realize that Taxed fish are part of their quota.


Heya tubs, I respectfully beg to differ. daily quota's are only applicable to species in your possession. if it was a you say, then every hook up should form part of the quota ;)


Hey man, no worries but think of it this way, your quota is what you kill and take home right, so if 10 are killed because of your actions shouldn't that count?

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ok think of it this way . your bagglimit is one shark per day . that includes sandies and rays . so if you swim a livebait and you get picked up that means you have taken 2 and you are over your bagg limit . and then you are only allowed to swim one bait a day .

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That's an interesting angle...If you were correct, it would mean that using a "shark" as a livebait or sandie etc. as a bait, caught on that day would actually be illegal. Actually the "bag limit" is not a daily limit but a "in your possession" limit, at home or in storage or on person, either or. Just checked the regulations and you are correct in terms of "daily bag limit of one", the wording of our regulations sounds like it is a daily limit but is not. It is a bag limit on any one day, meaning at any given time. I have queried this in the past with my legal eagle friends and that was their opinion. If it were not, one could just sidestep any regulation by claiming that what was in your possession was caught on many different days but now just stored together. The regulators would have closed that loophole with their wording of the law.

"Species not mentioned in either of these lists have a bag limit of ten provided that sharks, rays, skates or chimaeras (Class Chondrichthyes) have a bag limit
of one and rockcods (Family Serranidae) have a bag limit of five (5)."
"No person (or recreational fisher) may on any one day land or be in possession of more than the species-specific bag limits as indicated in
this species list”."
"On any one day" and "or be in possession of" basically means at any one time you cannot have more than the bag limit altogether irrespective of where it is stored. So not a limit "per day" at all.. but an accumulative limit, in your possession, on any one day.

So it would not matter actually if the shark as bait was caught that day or not. It would depend on whether one could successfully argue that the first shark in possession is not actually still in your possession when it has been sent back out with hooks attached and the second shark picks it up, and depend also on when that shark picks up your bait, on at what point it is actually " in your possession". So in that case using a "shark" as bait would be illegal, if you are correct in saying that bag limit is one (I dont fish for sharks so I would not know), unless one can successfully argue that once thrown out attached to your line with hooks, it is not anymore in your possession and you can argue that the shark that eats the bait is only in your possession once landed. If you land him and he barfs up your bait, or it is still attached to your line, and an inspector is looking over your shoulder, you are in k@k! hahaha

Actually with the wording being "on any one day...land..or be in possession of" it would have to be a very difficult argument to win. One would have to catch the swimbait the day before, like at 11:55 PM, and send it out just before 12PM and hook a shark after that sometime early in the morning, AND have the bait come off the hook and not be swallowed at the time off hookup. and so only have one shark in your possession or landed on any one day. Its a difficult one, so for most situations using a shark, ray or sand shark as bait, live or dead, to catch another is illegal..interesting.

I guess this is all some way of regulating what are often slow growing, live bearing and globally endangered species. There is a complete disparity on recreational regulations and what is done commercially/industrially @ sea with people given license to longline the same slow growing and slow to reproduce species targeted by the shore guys, enmass, close inshore to the shore fishing spots. Nevermind sharknets which were already known in late 90's to be increasing average size and numbers of duskies and it was already then thought that later attacks attributed to GW's in natal were actually giant duskies. But there is no direction from government and the academics are not involved in decision making so thats where we are at.
Sharks are smart, and also pretty dumb.. Blue sharks, who's numbers are plummeting around the world, must be one of the most stupid creatures on earth..but bleed out a tuna and it doesn't take 5mins for a bunch of them to amass for a free meal from the blood in the water, out from a seemingly empty desert of ocean. You can lift them half out the water, carefully, and shake em about, with a gaff in the tail lobe and they still won't leave you alone..we have had sharks that are hooked see another bait in the vicinity, make a beeline against drag and chow that bait too, and hook both of us, had that happen with blues and bronzies, while fishing for edibles.. pretty much as doff as they come.
No reason to kill them though..anyway just some thoughts..

nantes wrote: ok think of it this way . your bagglimit is one shark per day . that includes sandies and rays . so if you swim a livebait and you get picked up that means you have taken 2 and you are over your bagg limit . and then you are only allowed to swim one bait a day .

Last edited on Sat Mar 16th, 2019 10:52 am by Dr halibut hoffman

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nantes wrote:
ok think of it this way . your bagglimit is one shark per day . that includes sandies and rays . so if you swim a livebait and you get picked up that means you have taken 2 and you are over your bagg limit . and then you are only allowed to swim one bait a day .

That is actually how it works, that's why it's a daily bag limit. If you are taking a shark out and putting it back as a swimbait you have taken that shark, it will either be eaten or die (even if you "release" it afterwards).

I'm however not in agreement with the comment about taxing of fish although from an ethical perspective one could consider a taxed fish as part of the limit, from a legal perspective I think you would be hard pressed to prove the point.

Last edited on Sat Mar 16th, 2019 10:41 am by DJP

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This is a difficult one, but like the saying goes: 'Walk in the lion's den, be expected to be mauled by a lion!"
I've recently been luck enough to have been able to fish in the Breede river for the past 3 years on a fairly regular basis. In the 3 years I've noticed a sharp decline in edible fish coming out, but over the summer period huge rumblings of fish been taxed by the Zambies. These okes are trained !!!! They will lie in wait and as soon as your fish is about to be landed, bang its gone. Can't remember the estimated BIG cob that were taxed this year, but it was a scary number. Someone mentioned it earlier, there has never been an attack on a human, but hey, never sat never. I crap myself every time I pump prawns in waist high water.
Back in home waters, Langebaan, the bronzies are also a huge pain in the arse as well as the increased seal population. Same story with the bronzies, they will wait until your cob,elf or yellowtail is almost in the boat before they come along and help themselves. You can run your motors, clap your hands, shout and scream, nothing helps. Now let's talk about the seals, these bastards are so brazen, they swim up to your boat and want to look inside for something to scavenge. Hook a decent stumpnose then 2 or 3 come out of no where and steal your catch. Then they don't move away, you must maar move along. Never in my 40 odd years fishing in Langebaan have I seen so many seals as now. They even have seem to set up base on the island as I've seen quite a few sunning themselves on the rocks. So I reckon the scientists should come and do some studies around the West coast, might just find a different result!!!!
Back to the sharks. At the end of the day we are playing in their domain and no animal is stupid. They will go for the weakest or easy pickings.Don't really think we are going to find a simple solution here unless we all pack up our fishing tackle, pull up all the shark nets, stop all trek-netting and ban all trawlers in our waters for at least 10 years, maybe then some normality will prevail. What's the chances??? :X

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This photo has most likely been posted before. Bronzie caught and landed on sand/bait bank in Langebaan. Obviosly released...............

Attachment: haai.jpg (Downloaded 82 times)

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was gister uit see toe om te gaan vis . gesukkel vir lewendige aas . uiteindelik n paar gekry en dieper gegaan . my plek gekry waar ek wou vis . anker gesit paar lewindige baits aangesit en gewag . na so n uur my eerste trek gekry . n yellofin van so 15 . toe begin die fun . het altesaam seker so 25 tuna gehaak . 5 uitgekry en 20 vir die haaie gevoer . glo my dis nie my soort fun nie . 1 uit 6 is joune . 5 uit 6 vir die haaie . en nog steeds glo party mense daar is nie n haai probleem nie . glo my ons sit met n helse blackfin probleem in natal . hoop ons goverment gee die chineese longliners n permit om te kom blackfins vang hier .

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William, daar is 'n uitstekende boek oor die visvang geskiedenis van die Breederivier - Gooi los deur Jan Langenhoven. Haai probleme in Witsand gaan donkiejare terug, party van die stories oor 12 - 16 reuse kabeljoue wat in een aand getax word, haaie wat onder die boot wag ens, weet nie so mooi of dit 'n nuwe probleem is nie?? Wat nog meer interresant oor die boek is is die massas vis wat vroeer jare daar uitgetrek is, baie stories oor ouens wat 5 of 6 100lb kabeljoue per aand vang, Rooi steenbras net so baie.