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Should Seine Netting be Banned?
   
   
   
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RobinF
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Mana: 
Seine netting or treknetting has been around a long time. It's is an old method of fishing that results in a massive amount of bycatch (lots of smaller fish and or 'other' fish that are not intended to be caught). These fish very often die during the netting process. The environmental impact on an area where this takes place is devastating as so much 'unintended' species are caught. The government has many a time considered banning this type of fishing, but has never done it. Recently the Vetches Beach/Pier seine netters illegally caught and slaughtered more than 115 Garrick. So this topic has flared up again at senior level, so this post is very relevant. Please vote!

jb2
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Mana: 
Hi Robin

A charter boat was bust with over 100 shad. Please don't ask for the banning of charter boats.

 

RobinF
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Mana: 
JB2 that is a ridiculous comment and I thought you of all people, doing what you do for a living would have a more mature comment than that. This poll if for interest sake. Over the last couple of years, there have been credible reports of Seine Netters in KZN making a lot of illegal catches and numerous studies regarding the viability of this type of fishing. This is not something I just dreamed up.

As a member of this forum, I'm entitled to post a poll, I should not have to have that poll undermined. Just vote no rather, please.

jb2
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Mana: 
RobinF wrote: JB2 that is a ridiculous comment and I thought you of all people, doing what you do for a living would have a more mature comment than that. This poll if for interest sake. Over the last couple of years, there have been credible reports of Seine Netters in KZN making a lot of illegal catches and numerous studies regarding the viability of this type of fishing. This is not something I just dreamed up.

As a member of this forum, I'm entitled to post a poll, I should not have to have that poll undermined. Just vote no rather, please.


Hi Robin

I understand your reaction but my comment is not ridiculous.

Your question is "A group of fishers have been involved in breaking the law, should we ban the fishery?"

The series of contraventions by charterers should not lead to the banning of charter fishing.

The question that you pose is not really a "yes"  or "no" question.

Cpt. Hook
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Mana: 
I would be happy if those netters there by DSBC are gone for ever. They have plundered to much already and IMO their time is up and they must move on. They have broken the law too many times and gotten away with it.

As for charters that plunder, my feelings are the same

RobinF
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Mana: 
Ok JB2, well why don't you start up a poll on that topic of should Charters be banned then?

I'll be happy to vote.

Cpt. Hook
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Mana: 
Calm down boys....:fbash

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Mana: 
I dont think they should be banned just better managed/policed.... Guys holding permits need to inform the relevant authorities of where and when they will be using nets and expect a surprise visit... When and if we use/need nets we inform local nature conservation, get the relevant permits and do what needs to be done knowing that they could pop there head around the corner at any moment... Effective policing is needed. My opinion is we cant slate an entire industry because of one or two people... Same goes for rock & surf, charters, commercial fisherman, weekend warriors,fresh water etc etc etc etc.... Weed out the bad apples,,, However, sometimes things happen and the wrong specie gets nailed/destroyed in other forms as well, (Spotted cob/74's - Juvenile Coppers or under sized fish etc) We need to try and limit this and have it effectively policed.. I'm under correction here but i'm sure the natal parks board have confiscated nets as well as a vehicle because it was used to commit a crime.... This could be a way to enforce this...

RobinF
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Mana: 
Hi Alien Invader,

I initially started out with the same view. I honestly thought that this can be managed, but the deeper I dug the more clear it became that our Coastal Management guys just cannot cope. Then there is the threatening and intimidation of members of the public that take photo's of the catches that these guys make. It all just spiraled down as I dug more and more. It's a sad situation and if you look into it and research it, you'll be shocked at the reports.

Hey Fishing Adventures, I'm totally calm....

Regards
Robin

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Mana: 
To date I have seen no CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the netters breaking the law. There has been lots of hearsay, lots of heavy breathing, fire and damnation stuff....but no proof.
As a result I vote no.
If you can prove that the law has been contravened, then I would remove this persons right to fish - I would still not ban netting completely.
A ban is an easy way out and is the thin end of the wedge.
Look at coppers.....
My worry is that once we get onto a roll of banning, there is little knowledge or desire from our Ministerial component to investigate other conservation alternatives. It will therefore not be long before any infringement is met with a total ban.

Cpt. Hook
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Fin-S wrote:
To date I have seen no CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the netters breaking the law. There has been lots of hearsay, lots of heavy breathing, fire and damnation stuff....but no proof.
As a result I vote no.
If you can prove that the law has been contravened, then I would remove this persons right to fish - I would still not ban netting completely.
A ban is an easy way out and is the thin end of the wedge.
Look at coppers.....
My worry is that once we get onto a roll of banning, there is little knowledge or desire from our Ministerial component to investigate other conservation alternatives. It will therefore not be long before any infringement is met with a total ban.


I agree with you on removing and banning that offending person, and not the industry.

My vote was yes for this specific guy. Unfortunately concrete proof has been handed over in the past by several persons and nothing happened and it all gets swept under the carpet

RobinF
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Mana: 
Fin-S, Thanks for the vote:

IOL news article 22 December 2011 - "In recent weeks, he has had several confrontations with Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife officials, who bust him for allegedly netting banned fish. It is also believed Ezemvelo has recommended to the Department of Sea Fisheries that seine netting be banned."

Fin-S, please don't get me wrong, I totally respect your views. Thanks again for voting.

 

Fin-S wrote: To date I have seen no CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the netters breaking the law. There has been lots of hearsay, lots of heavy breathing, fire and damnation stuff....but no proof.
As a result I vote no.
If you can prove that the law has been contravened, then I would remove this persons right to fish - I would still not ban netting completely.
A ban is an easy way out and is the thin end of the wedge.
Look at coppers.....
My worry is that once we get onto a roll of banning, there is little knowledge or desire from our Ministerial component to investigate other conservation alternatives. It will therefore not be long before any infringement is met with a total ban.

Cpt. Hook
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Fin-S wrote:
To date I have seen no CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the netters breaking the law. There has been lots of hearsay, lots of heavy breathing, fire and damnation stuff....but no proof.
As a result I vote no.
If you can prove that the law has been contravened, then I would remove this persons right to fish - I would still not ban netting completely.
A ban is an easy way out and is the thin end of the wedge.
Look at coppers.....
My worry is that once we get onto a roll of banning, there is little knowledge or desire from our Ministerial component to investigate other conservation alternatives. It will therefore not be long before any infringement is met with a total ban.


Double Post

Last edited on Wed Dec 5th, 2012 05:03 am by Cpt. Hook

RobinF
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Last edited on Wed Dec 5th, 2012 05:16 am by RobinF

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Fin-S wrote:
To date I have seen no CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the netters breaking the law. There has been lots of hearsay, lots of heavy breathing, fire and damnation stuff....but no proof.
As a result I vote no.
If you can prove that the law has been contravened, then I would remove this persons right to fish - I would still not ban netting completely.
A ban is an easy way out and is the thin end of the wedge.
Look at coppers.....
My worry is that once we get onto a roll of banning, there is little knowledge or desire from our Ministerial component to investigate other conservation alternatives. It will therefore not be long before any infringement is met with a total ban.

I'm with you on this one... it will simply become to easy to ban something without the proper investigation done...
In my opinion we are not to far from this already,,, it's way cheaper to ban something than to commission a research project. Home/land owners on rivers/estuaries have already started the ball rolling and could back fire,,, jetski's being banned because of damage to mud banks by sucking up prawn,,,, Booze cruisers ok though, props digging through the mud is not so bad. lol! Tick tock!

jb2
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Mana: 
RobinF wrote: Ok JB2, well why don't you start up a poll on that topic of should Charters be banned then?

I'll be happy to vote.


Hi Robin

The difficulty that you have is that you are asking that non compliance should lead to banning of an entire fishery. Your main suggestion is that banning should be the response where enforcement is highly problematic or has proved unhelpful.

This is a very dangerous and double edged sword that could easily be wielded against us as recreationals.

I do not know the KZN netters, I once saw them net sardines when I was in KZN on holiday but I have no interest in their welfare.

My main concern is the insistence that complete fishery closures should be used as  a management measure where there are less severe measures that could target the individual transgressions.

The Durban charter industry seems to have a few bad apples but I would dispute your call for banning in this case.

I understand that the shad run in KZN can turn into a complete dog show at times with violence and blatant non compliance. I would still not call for the banning of shad fishing in the areas where they make a showing.

The runs of small  kabeljou in the Cape and the attendant slaughter by recreationals is incredibly depressing. I would still not call for a banning of recreational fishing for kob when there are a lot of small fish around.

All that I am saying is "Becareful what you ask for, you might just get it!"

 

RobinF
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Hi JB2,

Your point is very valid, and I see what your saying. Thank you for that reply.

There is 'method in my madness' with this poll, it's stirs up emotion and it allows us to see both sides. As you can see we have both supporters and non-supporters voting, and that in itself is positive. It's important for us as fishing community to share thoughts and ideas to promote sustainable fishing and prevent the destruction of our resources. The fact is that I am against that form of fishing, but it still exists. I am very interested to see how many other people share my views and those that don't.

I am not on a witch hunt with this poll, it's a very interesting and emotional topic and the results will be of intense interest to me and others. It's a good topic. The fact is the poll could be in favour of keeping Seine Netting, I have no control over the results. 

Regards
Robin

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Mana: 
RobinF wrote: Hi JB2,

Your point is very valid, and I see what your saying. Thank you for that reply.

There is 'method in my madness' with this poll, it's stirs up emotion and it allows us to see both sides. As you can see we have both supporters and non-supporters voting, and that in itself is positive. It's important for us as fishing community to share thoughts and ideas to promote sustainable fishing and prevent the destruction of our resources. The fact is that I am against that form of fishing, but it still exists. I am very interested to see how many other people share my views and those that don't.

I am not on a witch hunt with this poll, it's a very interesting and emotional topic and the results will be of intense interest to me and others. It's a good topic. The fact is the poll could be in favour of keeping Seine Netting, I have no control over the results. 

Regards
Robin

Hi Robin

I am worried about your suggestion of stirring up emotion. I would hope that fisheries management decisions are made coldly and dispassionately.

It would be a huge help if you could let us know how the DAFF scientists view the KZN fishery.

Has there been a change in policy in recent years?

Where netters previously confined to sardines? Is their current authorisation a permanent allocation or is it something more tenuous?

Was the change in policy made contrary to scientific advice?

I don't know the answers but those are some of the questions that I would ask if I wanted to start "krapping" properly. (nudge, nudge wink, wink ;-) )

You posted a link to Dr. Lamberth's email in another thread. Have you asked him these questions yet?


 

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RobinF

Before I begin, I have voted against seine netting..before we get off on the wrong foot again..

I ask again: Is it at all possible that you or someone in the know can provide us with the applicable info re: "the slaughter" as far as facts go? hearsay and presumptions can only lead to more issues, There are plenty of us DBN locals on this forum yet I am still to see or hear of any info from the locals,

This family of "vetches seine netters" have held the same authority/ licence for many many years, they have been pulling those nets since I was a kid more than 30yrs ago.. surely if they had been up to no good their annual licence would have been revoked, pulled or not re Issued?

The number of times I have witnessed these guys pulling nets their by catch has been returned to the water, less the odd DOA, but I would still like to see the netting halted in order for the area that surrounds Vetchies to become the marine protected area (MPA) that it is supposed to be..

With that said, Do you think there are political, racial or some other dark forces at play that these guys have hung onto their right to be the ONE and ONLY authorized seine netters on the Dbn beachfront? (less the annual sardine netters that appear during the sardine run)

RobinF
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Hi MISA,

If you are asking me to give you proof of the 115+ Garrick, I cannot. I have three people that witnessed the capture and one witnessed the sale. Their account of this incident are all the same. But, they refuse to give formal statements because they park their vehicles right outside the netter's facility and as such are afraid. I can't force these guys. Some of the guys have had calls late at night and some get quietly told to be careful or else. It's so difficult for them. And thus, that is why so many are so quiet. You yourself have noticed that they are so quiet, right? Ask yourself why that is? The answer becomes obvious. Most have families, so I cannot blame them.

What I do know is that a lot of issues that arise with this netter and his catches are conveniently rubbed out. Corruption? According to what I have been told, it appears so. Proof? No.

As you know, this is all about tradition, the handing down of the lic from father to son. I do think that as a start, they should revoke any lic where the guys are catching illegally. I will never believe that any netter has his lic because of race. Maybe I am naive like that, but for me I am completely colour-blind (Figuratively).

Regards
Robin

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RobinF wrote: Hi MISA,

If you are asking me to give you proof of the 115+ Garrick, I cannot. I have three people that witnessed the capture and one witnessed the sale. Their account of this incident are all the same. But, they refuse to give formal statements because they park their vehicles right outside the netter's facility and as such are afraid. I can't force these guys. Some of the guys have had calls late at night and some get quietly told to be careful or else. It's so difficult for them. And thus, that is why so many are so quiet. You yourself have noticed that they are so quiet, right? Ask yourself why that is? The answer becomes obvious. Most have families, so I cannot blame them.

What I do know is that a lot of issues that arise with this netter and his catches are conveniently rubbed out. Corruption? According to what I have been told, it appears so. Proof? No.

As you know, this is all about tradition, the handing down of the lic from father to son. I do think that as a start, they should revoke any lic where the guys are catching illegally. I will never believe that any netter has his lic because of race. Maybe I am naive like that, but for me I am completely colour-blind (Figuratively).

Regards
Robin


Hi Robin

All commercial fishing rights allocations in South Africa are based on race.

In fisheries controlled by total allowable catch such as pilchards, hake, kreef, etc., your percentage of black shareholding and management and procurement is directly related to how much fish you are allowed to catch.

In effort controlled fishing, you compete for a restricted number of units of effort. So if only 20 boats may be employed, the companies with the 20 highest scores for black shareholding and management will usually outscore comparable applications where transformation is lower.

RobinF
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Hi JB2,

Thanks for that. I actually never knew that. See why polls like this are important?

Just to go back to something, I did not start this poll to rile up emotions, that would imply that I am causing trouble, this poll is about a real concern for many. It just so happens to hit that proverbial nerve for many. And it is interesting to see the different views. I under no circumstance am a professional, so it's also educational for me too and I learn more from each member that contributes.

Regards
Robin

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RobinF wrote: Hi JB2,

Thanks for that. I actually never knew that. See why polls like this are important?

Just to go back to something, I did not start this poll to rile up emotions, that would imply that I am causing trouble, this poll is about a real concern for many. It just so happens to hit that proverbial nerve for many. And it is interesting to see the different views. I under no circumstance am a professional, so it's also educational for me too and I learn more from each member that contributes.

Regards
Robin

Hi Robin

I am not sure that the poll itself is of any value but I think that open robust discussion is incredibly important.

The reason that I suggested the right questions to ask was to give you some guidance on how to go about investigating stuff.

Just to give you an idea about how central race is to rights allocations, it is worth having a look at the section of the Marine Living Resources Act that deals with Race.

Have a look at the section below:

Granting of rights


18. (1) No person shall undertake commercial fishing or subsistence fishing, engage


in mariculture or operate a fish processing establishment unless a right to undertake or


engage in such an activity or to operate such an establishment has been granted to such


a person by the Minister.


(2) An application for any right referred to in subsection (1) shall be submitted to the


Minister in the manner that the Minister may determine.


(3) The Minister may require an environmental impact assessment report to be


submitted by the applicant.


(4) Unless otherwise determined by the Minister in relation to the holders of existing


rights, only South African persons shall acquire or hold rights in terms of this section.


(5) In granting any right referred to in subsection (1), the Minister shall, in order to achieve the objectives contemplated in section 2, have particular regard to the need to permit new entrants, particularly those from historically disadvantaged sectors of society.


(6) All rights granted in terms of this section shall be valid for the period determined


by the Minister, which period shall not exceed 15 years, whereafter it shall automatically


terminate and revert back to the State to be reallocated in terms of the provisions of this


Act relating to the allocation of such rights.


(7) The Minister may determine sustainable conservation and management measures,


including the use of a particular type of vessel or gear, or area of fishing, to which a right


may be subject.


 

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Mana: 
I think the poll was brilliant!!

We got a pretty good indication of how people perceive this issue.

MISA
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Mana: 
jb2 I suspected as much thus I only questioned it..

RobinF I am almost willing to bet if something was done to pull the licence it would end up heading towards the constitution courts...

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Mana: 
JB correct me if im wrong but wasnt there a kinda ultimatum set for the cape town trekkers to either keep to the regulations or face the music?

This has no doubt led to Naartjie giving a crewmember a warm ear with some sort of implement on 2 occasions that i know of.

jb2
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Marthin wrote: JB correct me if im wrong but wasnt there a kinda ultimatum set for the cape town trekkers to either keep to the regulations or face the music?

This has no doubt led to Naartjie giving a crewmember a warm ear with some sort of implement on 2 occasions that i know of.


Hi Marthin

There have been a series of meetings with the False Bay treknetters. They meet twice a year with the fisheries manager and he does read them the riot act from time to time.

There are representatives from compliance (inspectors) at the meeting and they speak quite frankly about what they have in miind if there are transgressions.

The crew smokkel is a problem and it has been suggested that Naartjie taps them with the plank that he uses as a measuring board if they get out of line. (For "tap" read "moers them stukkend like its the last over of a 20/20 match!")

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Mana: 
Something like that just needs to be implemented at durban and i can't see how it can be an issue.

Echo7
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Mana: 
In Durban there is a lack of will and resolve (AKA balls) by the authorities, coupled with the fact that the habitual offender in question has numerous highly placed contacts to bail him out of trouble.

This offender is an extremely unsavoury character who likes dressing up in military -like garb and comands a small army of associates who are well connected to the underworld. All protected by a pretty effecient legal team.

So long story short, while we debate this to enternity, the fact remains that Robin who is in Cape Town actually DID something that the cuzzies in sleepy hollow (Durban) couldn't.

CLS
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Mana: 
We are doing something in Durban. I say ban the licence for the area if its being abused.

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We are doing something in Durban.

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We are doing something in Durban.

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We are doing something in Durban.

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I know YOU are helping CLS, will come see you when I'm back in Durbs.

RobinF
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Echo, as you know, if it was not for CLS mantioning the Garrick, I would not have been involved. (Should I be saying that?)   :uzi:uzi:uzi:uziCLS


I'll remove that if you want.

CLS
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No sweat, slowly slowly catch the culprit

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Mana: 
For me you must classify gill netting and trek netting in different categories.

Gill netting is evil because they catch eveything and stay in the water for days/months.

Treknetting only catch fish that is in that area for the 30 min they are setting the net. Might have a whole school or nothing.

Will vote to ban gill netting, but treknetting is better fishing practice and just as bad as 20 anglers with rod and reel.

RobinF wrote:
Fin-S, Thanks for the vote:

IOL news article 22 December 2011 - "In recent weeks, he has had several confrontations with Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife officials, who bust him for allegedly netting banned fish. It is also believed Ezemvelo has recommended to the Department of Sea Fisheries that seine netting be banned."

Fin-S, please don't get me wrong, I totally respect your views. Thanks again for voting.

 

Fin-S wrote: To date I have seen no CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the netters breaking the law. There has been lots of hearsay, lots of heavy breathing, fire and damnation stuff....but no proof.
As a result I vote no.
If you can prove that the law has been contravened, then I would remove this persons right to fish - I would still not ban netting completely.
A ban is an easy way out and is the thin end of the wedge.
Look at coppers.....
My worry is that once we get onto a roll of banning, there is little knowledge or desire from our Ministerial component to investigate other conservation alternatives. It will therefore not be long before any infringement is met with a total ban.

RobinF
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Hi BulkCarrier,

Gill nets are a monster, what this poll is about is your second suggestion. The dropping of nets, encircling the fish and essentially pulling that to shore. The 'treknetting' has it's own evil in that it scoops up everything not small enough to get through the netting holes. Your imagination will tell you what can happen from there.

It's good to have you voting, go for it.

Echo7
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Fin-S wrote: To date I have seen no CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the netters breaking the law. There has been lots of hearsay, lots of heavy breathing, fire and damnation stuff....but no proof.

 

I'm assuming then that the burden of proof rests with the accusers? By that logic there would be no whistleblowers on matters of corruption, no tip offs from members of the public about crimes unless prima facie evidence is provided. If one applies that to real life, no crimes would be solved unless a policeman was there while the offence is being commited.

A number of people have reported the same person for the same offences a number of times, the same way a group of concerned neighbours would complain if they suspected a private home in their area was being run as a brothel. It would be beyond the capability for an ordinary person to gather such evidence (in the interest of marital bliss). That duty would rest on the police, who no doubt take a VERY active interest in brothels.

The point is the authorities should have taken action long ago, the question is why are they so reluctant?

 

 

RobinF
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Mana: 
What an EPIC comparison. True, but what an example to use! Thanks Echo, I nearly wet myself laughing at that.

Echo7
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My pleasure Sir.

Fin-S
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Mana: 
Then allow me to reserve my judgement until there is actual proof.
Do not ask for a vote based on supposition.
If we all convicted based on hearsay, then there may be a miscarriage of justice.
An opinion is different to a vote.

If you feel so strongly, then go and prove the issue.
Where is the pic of 155 illegal garrick?

Cpt. Hook
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Echo7 wrote:
Fin-S wrote: To date I have seen no CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the netters breaking the law. There has been lots of hearsay, lots of heavy breathing, fire and damnation stuff....but no proof.

 

I'm assuming then that the burden of proof rests with the accusers? By that logic there would be no whistleblowers on matters of corruption, no tip offs from members of the public about crimes unless prima facie evidence is provided. If one applies that to real life, no crimes would be solved unless a policeman was there while the offence is being commited.

A number of people have reported the same person for the same offences a number of times, the same way a group of concerned neighbours would complain if they suspected a private home in their area was being run as a brothel. It would be beyond the capability for an ordinary person to gather such evidence (in the interest of marital bliss). That duty would rest on the police, who no doubt take a VERY active interest in brothels.

The point is the authorities should have taken action long ago, the question is why are they so reluctant?

 

 


LOL, reminds me of the old days on Durban beachfront when a lady took her top off, all the cops from every station in Durban would come to arrest her.

RobinF
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Mana: 
If you do some basic investigating, you'll see that there is proof of prior incidents, it's even been in the media.

As for the Garrick, thank goodness the law allows for convictions based on witness testamony, and not photos alone. I'll stick to the numerous witness accounts that recount the exact same story. (Witnesses that are not connected in any way).

As for me feeling so strongly that I should go prove it, thanks for the words of wisdom, but I am ahead of you on that one and actually, I've been beaten to it by someone else. (I guess the very well respected Marine Scientist that beat me to it must also be making it up?)

I assure you that I did not wake up one morning and decide today I am going to cause k*k. But I respect your stand on it and that is what makes this forum great, mutual respect for each other's opinion.

Fin-S wrote: Then allow me to reserve my judgement until there is actual proof.
Do not ask for a vote based on supposition.
If we all convicted based on hearsay, then there may be a miscarriage of justice.
An opinion is different to a vote.

If you feel so strongly, then go and prove the issue.
Where is the pic of 155 illegal garrick?

roryf
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I have a friend that has seen them get Oxeye Tarpon and sell them.

benniejordaan
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RobinF wrote: Hi MISA,

If you are asking me to give you proof of the 115+ Garrick, I cannot. I have three people that witnessed the capture and one witnessed the sale. Their account of this incident are all the same. But, they refuse to give formal statements because they park their vehicles right outside the netter's facility and as such are afraid. I can't force these guys. Some of the guys have had calls late at night and some get quietly told to be careful or else. It's so difficult for them. And thus, that is why so many are so quiet. You yourself have noticed that they are so quiet, right? Ask yourself why that is? The answer becomes obvious. Most have families, so I cannot blame them.

What I do know is that a lot of issues that arise with this netter and his catches are conveniently rubbed out. Corruption? According to what I have been told, it appears so. Proof? No.

As you know, this is all about tradition, the handing down of the lic from father to son. I do think that as a start, they should revoke any lic where the guys are catching illegally. I will never believe that any netter has his lic because of race. Maybe I am naive like that, but for me I am completely colour-blind (Figuratively).

Regards
Robin

I think they are just as guilty if they don't speak up.

RobinF
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benniejordaan wrote: RobinF wrote: Hi MISA,

If you are asking me to give you proof of the 115+ Garrick, I cannot. I have three people that witnessed the capture and one witnessed the sale. Their account of this incident are all the same. But, they refuse to give formal statements because they park their vehicles right outside the netter's facility and as such are afraid. I can't force these guys. Some of the guys have had calls late at night and some get quietly told to be careful or else. It's so difficult for them. And thus, that is why so many are so quiet. You yourself have noticed that they are so quiet, right? Ask yourself why that is? The answer becomes obvious. Most have families, so I cannot blame them.

What I do know is that a lot of issues that arise with this netter and his catches are conveniently rubbed out. Corruption? According to what I have been told, it appears so. Proof? No.

As you know, this is all about tradition, the handing down of the lic from father to son. I do think that as a start, they should revoke any lic where the guys are catching illegally. I will never believe that any netter has his lic because of race. Maybe I am naive like that, but for me I am completely colour-blind (Figuratively).

Regards
Robin

I think they are just as guilty if they don't speak up.

Agreed.

RobinF
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benniejordaan wrote: RobinF wrote: Hi MISA,

If you are asking me to give you proof of the 115+ Garrick, I cannot. I have three people that witnessed the capture and one witnessed the sale. Their account of this incident are all the same. But, they refuse to give formal statements because they park their vehicles right outside the netter's facility and as such are afraid. I can't force these guys. Some of the guys have had calls late at night and some get quietly told to be careful or else. It's so difficult for them. And thus, that is why so many are so quiet. You yourself have noticed that they are so quiet, right? Ask yourself why that is? The answer becomes obvious. Most have families, so I cannot blame them.

What I do know is that a lot of issues that arise with this netter and his catches are conveniently rubbed out. Corruption? According to what I have been told, it appears so. Proof? No.

As you know, this is all about tradition, the handing down of the lic from father to son. I do think that as a start, they should revoke any lic where the guys are catching illegally. I will never believe that any netter has his lic because of race. Maybe I am naive like that, but for me I am completely colour-blind (Figuratively).

Regards
Robin

I think they are just as guilty if they don't speak up.
Agreed

Cpt. Hook
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benniejordaan wrote:
RobinF wrote: Hi MISA,

If you are asking me to give you proof of the 115+ Garrick, I cannot. I have three people that witnessed the capture and one witnessed the sale. Their account of this incident are all the same. But, they refuse to give formal statements because they park their vehicles right outside the netter's facility and as such are afraid. I can't force these guys. Some of the guys have had calls late at night and some get quietly told to be careful or else. It's so difficult for them. And thus, that is why so many are so quiet. You yourself have noticed that they are so quiet, right? Ask yourself why that is? The answer becomes obvious. Most have families, so I cannot blame them.

What I do know is that a lot of issues that arise with this netter and his catches are conveniently rubbed out. Corruption? According to what I have been told, it appears so. Proof? No.

As you know, this is all about tradition, the handing down of the lic from father to son. I do think that as a start, they should revoke any lic where the guys are catching illegally. I will never believe that any netter has his lic because of race. Maybe I am naive like that, but for me I am completely colour-blind (Figuratively).

Regards
Robin

I think they are just as guilty if they don't speak up.

100% correct

Serra Moz
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How do they issue licenses for Seine netters, is it a license that remains in the family? Traditional? Or issued on a 99yrs period for example?

jb2
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Serra Moz wrote: How do they issue licenses for Seine netters, is it a license that remains in the family? Traditional? Or issued on a 99yrs period for example?

Hi Serra Moz

The majority of the rights in the Cape are standard commercial fishing rights. A total allowable effort is decided of a number of operators per area is allocated.

So for example Macassar has one rights holder while Strandfontein to Muizenberg has two.

The applications are the same as all other commercial rights. So they had to apply on the prescribed forms just like I & J or Oceana would have.

One of the restrictions in many sectors including the netfish sector was that new entrants would not be allowed.

So at Naartjie's trek at Strandfontein -  Muizenberg would have been one of the oldest participants. I think that they bought those Chev - Ford bakkies for the trek and they are early 1970's models.

There is a bit of controversy surrounding an interim relief trek at Glencairn that was set up against scientific advice but I don't know enough about it.

Can I ask why are curious about the nature of the rights?

 

Serra Moz
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jb2 wrote:
Serra Moz wrote: How do they issue licenses for Seine netters, is it a license that remains in the family? Traditional? Or issued on a 99yrs period for example?

Hi Serra Moz

The majority of the rights in the Cape are standard commercial fishing rights. A total allowable effort is decided of a number of operators per area is allocated.

So for example Macassar has one rights holder while Strandfontein to Muizenberg has two.

The applications are the same as all other commercial rights. So they had to apply on the prescribed forms just like I & J or Oceana would have.

One of the restrictions in many sectors including the netfish sector was that new entrants would not be allowed.

So at Naartjie's trek at Strandfontein -  Muizenberg would have been one of the oldest participants. I think that they bought those Chev - Ford bakkies for the trek and they are early 1970's models.

There is a bit of controversy surrounding an interim relief trek at Glencairn that was set up against scientific advice but I don't know enough about it.

Can I ask why are curious about the nature of the rights?

 


Thanks for the reply, no particular reason for my question, I thought it was like a "right" lets say Mr. X and his family started netting 100yrs ago, thus the license stays in the family? So basically should one wish to net, he can then apply through the right channels and might be granted a license? Also, I thought say for example Mr. X and have have operated on Fish Hoek beach for 50yrs, that remains their area operations. Interesting!

Thanks

jb2
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Serra Moz wrote: jb2 wrote:
Serra Moz wrote: How do they issue licenses for Seine netters, is it a license that remains in the family? Traditional? Or issued on a 99yrs period for example?

Hi Serra Moz

The majority of the rights in the Cape are standard commercial fishing rights. A total allowable effort is decided of a number of operators per area is allocated.

So for example Macassar has one rights holder while Strandfontein to Muizenberg has two.

The applications are the same as all other commercial rights. So they had to apply on the prescribed forms just like I & J or Oceana would have.

One of the restrictions in many sectors including the netfish sector was that new entrants would not be allowed.

So at Naartjie's trek at Strandfontein -  Muizenberg would have been one of the oldest participants. I think that they bought those Chev - Ford bakkies for the trek and they are early 1970's models.

There is a bit of controversy surrounding an interim relief trek at Glencairn that was set up against scientific advice but I don't know enough about it.

Can I ask why are curious about the nature of the rights?

 


Thanks for the reply, no particular reason for my question, I thought it was like a "right" lets say Mr. X and his family started netting 100yrs ago, thus the license stays in the family? So basically should one wish to net, he can then apply through the right channels and might be granted a license? Also, I thought say for example Mr. X and have have operated on Fish Hoek beach for 50yrs, that remains their area operations. Interesting!

Thanks


He Serra Moz

There is a lot of confusion doing the rounds.  The Marine Living Resources Act came into being in 1998 but there were no real allocations in linefish or netfish until about 2003. This meant that there were people operating on exemptions and all kinds of things.

There were also weird kinds of treknet rights that farmers used to have in areas adjoining the sea. They were known as "rantsoenpermitte" to allow the farmer to fish and dry the fish to feed his workers.

There was a also some type of provison from other local authorities but those have fallen by the wayside.

One of the things that people keep missing is that a treknet (in False Bay at least) is a full commercial operation and is no different from any handline boat.

It would help if people would imagine the treknet as a chukkie that happens to operate from the shore.

It is also handy to remember that the public have a strong tradition of disliking treknetting. The earliest complaints go back to the VOC and more focussed complaints are from 1875!

Serra Moz
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Mana: 
jb2 wrote:
Serra Moz wrote: jb2 wrote:
Serra Moz wrote: How do they issue licenses for Seine netters, is it a license that remains in the family? Traditional? Or issued on a 99yrs period for example?

Hi Serra Moz

The majority of the rights in the Cape are standard commercial fishing rights. A total allowable effort is decided of a number of operators per area is allocated.

So for example Macassar has one rights holder while Strandfontein to Muizenberg has two.

The applications are the same as all other commercial rights. So they had to apply on the prescribed forms just like I & J or Oceana would have.

One of the restrictions in many sectors including the netfish sector was that new entrants would not be allowed.

So at Naartjie's trek at Strandfontein -  Muizenberg would have been one of the oldest participants. I think that they bought those Chev - Ford bakkies for the trek and they are early 1970's models.

There is a bit of controversy surrounding an interim relief trek at Glencairn that was set up against scientific advice but I don't know enough about it.

Can I ask why are curious about the nature of the rights?

 


Thanks for the reply, no particular reason for my question, I thought it was like a "right" lets say Mr. X and his family started netting 100yrs ago, thus the license stays in the family? So basically should one wish to net, he can then apply through the right channels and might be granted a license? Also, I thought say for example Mr. X and have have operated on Fish Hoek beach for 50yrs, that remains their area operations. Interesting!

Thanks


He Serra Moz

There is a lot of confusion doing the rounds.  The Marine Living Resources Act came into being in 1998 but there were no real allocations in linefish or netfish until about 2003. This meant that there were people operating on exemptions and all kinds of things.

There were also weird kinds of treknet rights that farmers used to have in areas adjoining the sea. They were known as "rantsoenpermitte" to allow the farmer to fish and dry the fish to feed his workers.

There was a also some type of provison from other local authorities but those have fallen by the wayside.

One of the things that people keep missing is that a treknet (in False Bay at least) is a full commercial operation and is no different from any handline boat.

It would help if people would imagine the treknet as a chukkie that happens to operate from the shore.

It is also handy to remember that the public have a strong tradition of disliking treknetting. The earliest complaints go back to the VOC and more focussed complaints are from 1875!


Always good info, I enjoy reading you replies...as far back as 1875! Wow! interesting. Being up in Moz I always wondered what the Inhaca (sandflats) would have been without the netting...bonefish and many others species - gone! Well, sadly in some cases people have to eat.

Refering to the "rantsoenpermitte" still allowed? If so, in which areas?

Again thanks for your info and history lesson, appreciated

jb2
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Serra Moz wrote: jb2 wrote:
Serra Moz wrote: jb2 wrote:
Serra Moz wrote: How do they issue licenses for Seine netters, is it a license that remains in the family? Traditional? Or issued on a 99yrs period for example?

Hi Serra Moz

The majority of the rights in the Cape are standard commercial fishing rights. A total allowable effort is decided of a number of operators per area is allocated.

So for example Macassar has one rights holder while Strandfontein to Muizenberg has two.

The applications are the same as all other commercial rights. So they had to apply on the prescribed forms just like I & J or Oceana would have.

One of the restrictions in many sectors including the netfish sector was that new entrants would not be allowed.

So at Naartjie's trek at Strandfontein -  Muizenberg would have been one of the oldest participants. I think that they bought those Chev - Ford bakkies for the trek and they are early 1970's models.

There is a bit of controversy surrounding an interim relief trek at Glencairn that was set up against scientific advice but I don't know enough about it.

Can I ask why are curious about the nature of the rights?

 


Thanks for the reply, no particular reason for my question, I thought it was like a "right" lets say Mr. X and his family started netting 100yrs ago, thus the license stays in the family? So basically should one wish to net, he can then apply through the right channels and might be granted a license? Also, I thought say for example Mr. X and have have operated on Fish Hoek beach for 50yrs, that remains their area operations. Interesting!

Thanks


He Serra Moz

There is a lot of confusion doing the rounds.  The Marine Living Resources Act came into being in 1998 but there were no real allocations in linefish or netfish until about 2003. This meant that there were people operating on exemptions and all kinds of things.

There were also weird kinds of treknet rights that farmers used to have in areas adjoining the sea. They were known as "rantsoenpermitte" to allow the farmer to fish and dry the fish to feed his workers.

There was a also some type of provison from other local authorities but those have fallen by the wayside.

One of the things that people keep missing is that a treknet (in False Bay at least) is a full commercial operation and is no different from any handline boat.

It would help if people would imagine the treknet as a chukkie that happens to operate from the shore.

It is also handy to remember that the public have a strong tradition of disliking treknetting. The earliest complaints go back to the VOC and more focussed complaints are from 1875!


Always good info, I enjoy reading you replies...as far back as 1875! Wow! interesting. Being up in Moz I always wondered what the Inhaca (sandflats) would have been without the netting...bonefish and many others species - gone! Well, sadly in some cases people have to eat.

Refering to the "rantsoenpermitte" still allowed? If so, in which areas?

Again thanks for your info and history lesson, appreciated


Hi

The rantsonepermitte have long since gone but they must have been handy to a farmer to feed his workers.

I remember a fishing book written by a guy from a farming family in the Hamburg district of the Eastern Cape. Every year they would go down to the coast and catch and salt grunter in the lagoons until they had enough to last them for the year.

Van Riebeeck relied heavily on treknetting to help him in the early years. He would have trekked the area that is now where the Cape Town station and Golden Acre mall now stand.

He also ate a shellfish that he called "klipkont". The word was later changed to "klipkous". In the 1650's people used to speak more directly than we do today.

I apologise if I have "highjacked" a thread. I really don't think that South Africans speak in linear threads either. Americans might do it but we don't.

We kind of speak in non linear currents that eddy and flow.

I came out of a kloof in the Boland once asked the farmer whether it was possible to fish the adjoining kloof and the farmer started telling us a story about the kloof nearby and it ran sort of like this.

"I tried to get into the kloof but the bush was too thick not even my dog could get into that bush and this dog was from Oom Flip and Oom Flip's dogs can go anywhere. And they had to be able to go anywhere to chase leopards. Because a leopard can come any time and it is no use to try to set a trap for him but rather wait for the lambing season and then rub your self with duiwelsdrek so that he can't smell you and then go and lie down next to the lamb like the bible says and wait with your dog who has also been rubbed with duiwelsdrek. And duiwelsdrek is just the extract from a type of plant that is like fennel and it is good for clearing up spider bites and the old people used to use it before antibiiotics. Because remember when the Spanish Flue came through our district there were many that were laid low. And at that time my fathers older brother had just started agricultural college in Pretoria.........."

If you want linear go get a ruler (Which of course we called "lineal" but that was at a time when we were worried about "Anglisisme" and if we said ruler our Onnie would......) you get the point

I never found out if their were fish in the adjoining kloof either.

Serra Moz
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No not hijacked at all, history and good info mate!

More please!

Thanks!

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Mana: 
I started this thread and it all revolves around the discussion that you are having, don't worry about broadening the topic, all good info.

Would like to meet that farmer that slaughtered Grunter like that and slap him upside the head and thank him for his wealthy contribution toward the species demise!

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RobinF wrote:
I started this thread and it all revolves around the discussion that you are having, don't worry about broadening the topic, all good info.

Would like to meet that farmer that slaughtered Grunter like that and slap him upside the head and thank him for his wealthy contribution toward the species demise!


I think that the person in question at the time might not have known any better?? Perhaps Grunters were in such abundance that they assumed it would be an everlasting stock, thus they continued "filling up" every year.

Last edited on Thu Jan 24th, 2013 11:49 am by Serra Moz

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I agree, just my sentiments.

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RobinF wrote:
I agree, just my sentiments.


Spot on, but I think today with media/education... and of course citizens who cares like us Sealine okes we can make a difference.

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ier gaan on al weer...

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Stapies wrote: ier gaan on al weer...

"Vaaaaat hom Fluffieeeee!"::S

(You see I can still laugh at myself!)

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Seems like everybody is running in circles with this issue... Heart 104.9 has a program in the afternoon where a person can speak to Helen Zille or Patricia De Lille concerning complaints like these. I don't know what's the number but I'm sure its not hard to get a hold of. Get the media involved... Speak to our local radio stations to help get attention to these issues!

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vote guys

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Seine netting is an Outdated form Of fishing , and whether Legal Or illegal , Breaking the Law or not breaking the Law - I equate this form of fishing to being about as clinically effective as Judge Dredd driving down to a Linkin Park concert after a Particular suspect - and opening fire On him In the Middle of a Crowded and Packed Golden Circle , with a 12 guage Shot-gun 9 times - Thereby Nailing His Target , and everyone Else who Falls by The wayside is considered "cholatteral Damage " .

Completely Daft and Prehistoric . I Realize That Jobs are at stake , I can comprehend the impact : But just because something doesn't contravene any law ,DOESN't Make it socially acceptable .

Take it away , Jb2 ..........

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Def-e-nition wrote: Seine netting is an Outdated form Of fishing , and whether Legal Or illegal , Breaking the Law or not breaking the Law - I equate this form of fishing to being about as clinically effective as Judge Dredd driving down to a Linkin Park concert after a Particular suspect - and opening fire On him In the Middle of a Crowded and Packed Golden Circle , with a 12 guage Shot-gun 9 times - Thereby Nailing His Target , and everyone Else who Falls by The wayside is considered "cholatteral Damage " .

Completely Daft and Prehistoric . I Realize That Jobs are at stake , I can comprehend the impact : But just because something doesn't contravene any law ,DOESN't Make it socially acceptable .

Take it away , Jb2 ..........

Hi Def

Before I reply.

Is that 12gg SSG or slugs?

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:temp::temp::temp::temp::temp::temp::temp:

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Def-e-nition wrote: Seine netting is an Outdated form Of fishing , and whether Legal Or illegal , Breaking the Law or not breaking the Law - I equate this form of fishing to being about as clinically effective as Judge Dredd driving down to a Linkin Park concert after a Particular suspect - and opening fire On him In the Middle of a Crowded and Packed Golden Circle , with a 12 guage Shot-gun 9 times - Thereby Nailing His Target , and everyone Else who Falls by The wayside is considered "cholatteral Damage " .

Completely Daft and Prehistoric . I Realize That Jobs are at stake , I can comprehend the impact : But just because something doesn't contravene any law ,DOESN't Make it socially acceptable .

Take it away , Jb2 ..........

Very well said. I agree 100%.

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Def-e-nition wrote:
Seine netting is an Outdated form Of fishing , and whether Legal Or illegal , Breaking the Law or not breaking the Law - I equate this form of fishing to being about as clinically effective as Judge Dredd driving down to a Linkin Park concert after a Particular suspect - and opening fire On him In the Middle of a Crowded and Packed Golden Circle , with a 12 guage Shot-gun 9 times - Thereby Nailing His Target , and everyone Else who Falls by The wayside is considered "cholatteral Damage " .

Completely Daft and Prehistoric . I Realize That Jobs are at stake , I can comprehend the impact : But just because something doesn't contravene any law ,DOESN't Make it socially acceptable .

Take it away , Jb2 ..........


I will agree with you if you can tell me that you have confronted every shore base angler that you have seen to take undersize or over quota fish , to put them back.

I can's say that, so like the old saying goes "People that lives in glass houses mustn't throw stones"

Why don't we as the rec anglers, not first cleanup our anglers before we start looking at the other guys.

Don't like treknet fishing, but have seen way worse from rec's.

Last edited on Wed Mar 20th, 2013 01:57 pm by BulkCarrier

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I'll Wager The impact Of ANY form Of netting , Versus the Damage recreational angling imparts , ANy day ..

Our club - 13 tonnes

a Trawler - 40 Tonnes in 3 days .

no contest .

 

I'm Specifically Targeting Trek Netting , Actually , but Just thinking about those balls being dragged along the bottom of The  Ocean Floor - as Long as We Can't see it - no harm done - we got the visse , right ?!?

 

Trek netting is My Main gripe . Lets begin there .

I DO hear you though . Your point Regarding Anglers is also , Very ,very , Valid .

 

Last edited on Wed Mar 20th, 2013 02:03 pm by Def-e-nition

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RobinF wrote: Def-e-nition wrote: Seine netting is an Outdated form Of fishing , and whether Legal Or illegal , Breaking the Law or not breaking the Law - I equate this form of fishing to being about as clinically effective as Judge Dredd driving down to a Linkin Park concert after a Particular suspect - and opening fire On him In the Middle of a Crowded and Packed Golden Circle , with a 12 guage Shot-gun 9 times - Thereby Nailing His Target , and everyone Else who Falls by The wayside is considered "cholatteral Damage " .

Completely Daft and Prehistoric . I Realize That Jobs are at stake , I can comprehend the impact : But just because something doesn't contravene any law ,DOESN't Make it socially acceptable .

Take it away , Jb2 ..........

Very well said. I agree 100%.

Hi RobinF

Good to have you back.

I was worried that you had run away when the questions started getting hard or that you were upset that I had said that you were fibbing.

Have a look at the other thread where the lie that you told about trek bycatch fish going to Gauteng was presented as fact.

Please don't disappear again!

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jb2 wrote: RobinF wrote: Def-e-nition wrote: Seine netting is an Outdated form Of fishing , and whether Legal Or illegal , Breaking the Law or not breaking the Law - I equate this form of fishing to being about as clinically effective as Judge Dredd driving down to a Linkin Park concert after a Particular suspect - and opening fire On him In the Middle of a Crowded and Packed Golden Circle , with a 12 guage Shot-gun 9 times - Thereby Nailing His Target , and everyone Else who Falls by The wayside is considered "cholatteral Damage " .

Completely Daft and Prehistoric . I Realize That Jobs are at stake , I can comprehend the impact : But just because something doesn't contravene any law ,DOESN't Make it socially acceptable .

Take it away , Jb2 ..........

Very well said. I agree 100%.

Hi RobinF

Good to have you back.

I was worried that you had run away when the questions started getting hard or that you were upset that I had said that you were fibbing.

Have a look at the other thread where the lie that you told about trek bycatch fish going to Gauteng was presented as fact.

Please don't disappear again!


You know JB2, call me what you want, mock me all you want, but to date I have only ever heard of one person shooting themselves with their OWN spear-gun and that's you. Really? Your own spear-gun?? As another Sealiner put it "chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken. Chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken."

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Chicken sosatie me thinks.

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RobinF wrote: jb2 wrote: RobinF wrote: Def-e-nition wrote: Seine netting is an Outdated form Of fishing , and whether Legal Or illegal , Breaking the Law or not breaking the Law - I equate this form of fishing to being about as clinically effective as Judge Dredd driving down to a Linkin Park concert after a Particular suspect - and opening fire On him In the Middle of a Crowded and Packed Golden Circle , with a 12 guage Shot-gun 9 times - Thereby Nailing His Target , and everyone Else who Falls by The wayside is considered "cholatteral Damage " .

Completely Daft and Prehistoric . I Realize That Jobs are at stake , I can comprehend the impact : But just because something doesn't contravene any law ,DOESN't Make it socially acceptable .

Take it away , Jb2 ..........

Very well said. I agree 100%.

Hi RobinF

Good to have you back.

I was worried that you had run away when the questions started getting hard or that you were upset that I had said that you were fibbing.

Have a look at the other thread where the lie that you told about trek bycatch fish going to Gauteng was presented as fact.

Please don't disappear again!


You know JB2, call me what you want, mock me all you want, but to date I have only ever heard of one person shooting themselves with their OWN spear-gun and that's you. Really? Your own spear-gun?? As another Sealiner put it "chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken. Chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken."

Hi RobinF

I already mentioned that I was much more stupid than that.

The trouble though is that just because I have had a monumental stuff up with diving equipment, it doesn't mean that I am necessarily wrong in my thoughts about marine management.

But let's rather talk about the topic that is the subject of this thread.

I have already pointed out that it is not enough to hide behind saying "chicken chicken."

Let us rather discuss things and explore common ground. Let us look at what is wrong and what can be fixed.

In order to do that we need to try to do it as honestly and forthrightly as possible.

Please don't run away or hide behind saying "chicken chicken" or "Nah nah nah - Nah nah!"

Please don't try to "sex up" stories or try to make them more juicey.

Let's just discuss things.

 

 

 


 

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jb2 wrote: RobinF wrote: jb2 wrote: RobinF wrote: Def-e-nition wrote: Seine netting is an Outdated form Of fishing , and whether Legal Or illegal , Breaking the Law or not breaking the Law - I equate this form of fishing to being about as clinically effective as Judge Dredd driving down to a Linkin Park concert after a Particular suspect - and opening fire On him In the Middle of a Crowded and Packed Golden Circle , with a 12 guage Shot-gun 9 times - Thereby Nailing His Target , and everyone Else who Falls by The wayside is considered "cholatteral Damage " .

Completely Daft and Prehistoric . I Realize That Jobs are at stake , I can comprehend the impact : But just because something doesn't contravene any law ,DOESN't Make it socially acceptable .

Take it away , Jb2 ..........

Very well said. I agree 100%.

Hi RobinF

Good to have you back.

I was worried that you had run away when the questions started getting hard or that you were upset that I had said that you were fibbing.

Have a look at the other thread where the lie that you told about trek bycatch fish going to Gauteng was presented as fact.

Please don't disappear again!


You know JB2, call me what you want, mock me all you want, but to date I have only ever heard of one person shooting themselves with their OWN spear-gun and that's you. Really? Your own spear-gun?? As another Sealiner put it "chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken. Chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken."

Hi RobinF

I already mentioned that I was much more stupid than that.

The trouble though is that just because I have had a monumental stuff up with diving equipment, it doesn't mean that I am necessarily wrong in my thoughts about marine management.

But let's rather talk about the topic that is the subject of this thread.

I have already pointed out that it is not enough to hide behind saying "chicken chicken."

Let us rather discuss things and explore common ground. Let us look at what is wrong and what can be fixed.

In order to do that we need to try to do it as honestly and forthrightly as possible.

Please don't run away or hide behind saying "chicken chicken" or "Nah nah nah - Nah nah!"

Please don't try to "sex up" stories or try to make them more juicey.

Let's just discuss things.

 

 

 


 

Where did I 'sex up' things to make it more juicy? You like to make wild accusations about people, but never back them up with truthful facts. If you beleive I was incorrect in something I said, then try 'exploring common ground'  (As you said) rather making false accusations.

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RobinF wrote: jb2 wrote: RobinF wrote: jb2 wrote: RobinF wrote: Def-e-nition wrote:



 

Where did I 'sex up' things to make it more juicy? You like to make wild accusations about people, but never back them up with truthful facts. If you beleive I was incorrect in something I said, then try 'exploring common ground'  (As you said) rather making false accusations.


Hi Robin

In mid Feb I asked you to correct a false statement that you made.

Have a look at my post below where I ask you to correct your fib.

Please confirm that your statement about fish going to Gauteng is false and was inserted for effect or some other purpose.

====================================

Hi Robin

Seriously dude?

This is important.

Your post suggests that fish is going to Gauteng.

Scripting or a real problem that needs to be addressed. 

I genuinely need to know!

Here is what you said:

BUT NOOOO, we have the issue of fish dying in the net, the undersized fish that should not be landed and so on and so on. My point is that the Trek netters do nothing to improve their image, instead they get Aziz to come take the small fish to Gauteng 

 

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Here we go again. I do not lie. If you think that I did, by all means prove it.

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RobinF wrote: Here we go again. I do not lie. If you think that I did, by all means prove it.


Hi Robin

You're doing it again.

Please take a step back and read your reply carefully.

You just asked me to show you were you were fibbing. As soon as I do that you say that you are not fibbing.

You asked me to point out a fib.

Please accept that I know a lot more about the sale of fish from linefish boats and treks than you.

And I can spot a fib.

 

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Clearly you don't know as much as you claim. So please produce your proof.

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RobinF wrote: Clearly you don't know as much as you claim. So please produce your proof.


Hi Robin

You still have not answered the question.

You have gone around in circles.

Did Aziz drive the fish to Gauteng?

It is sort of one of "He did or he did not" kind of things

So Robin, Did Aziz drive the fish to Gauteng?

You can see how far we have gone from your original post.

Did the fish go to Gauteng?

If you are telling the truth then there is no difficulty in you either denying or repeating the statement?

Did Aziz take the fish to Gauteng?

 

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That's what I thought....

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Mana: 
RobinF wrote: That's what I thought....


Ok Robin

The fish went to Kalk Bay but not to the inspectors. The crew seems to have taken most of it.

The inspectors are aware of it and they are dealing with it.

I will let you know how it pans out.

Now you see what has happened.

By pretending that you were telling the truth, you have eroded your credibility.

You should rather have been more forthright.

 

RobinF
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How wrong you are. I was not referring to just this one incident, they don't trek once a year....this happens on a regular basis.

Those that know me, know where my credibility stands, so like I said, do your worst, your personal attacks show you for what you are.

Alien Invader
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This is going nowhere and has even lost it's entertainment value..... I think a thread like this has done more damage than good to the cause you are trying to fight...
Good luck with it...

jb2
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RobinF wrote: How wrong you are. I was not referring to just this one incident, they don't trek once a year....this happens on a regular basis.

Those that know me, know where my credibility stands, so like I said, do your worst, your personal attacks show you for what you are.


Hi Robin

We have come a long way. So the fish on the Saturday was not driven to Gauteng.

The funny thing is that if you honestly think that Aziz can get enough fish to drive to Gauteng then you have no insight into how the actual marketing of treknet (or handline) caught fish is sold, marketed or distributed.

I think that you seized on the name "Aziz" and added a few facts a long the way.

Robin, you had asked me to point out where you had been fibbing or making the story a bit more juicey. I agreed that I would gladly point this out.

It is not a "personal attack" when I respond to your request for details of the fibs that you have told.

You as a person and what you  write are two separate things.

Please keep in mind that I asked that we have a forthright and open discussion. 

The biggest challenge to this is where the story is embellished to the point that it is no longer meaningful or helpful.

 

RobinF
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Joined: Thu Dec 2nd, 2010
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jb2 wrote: RobinF wrote: How wrong you are. I was not referring to just this one incident, they don't trek once a year....this happens on a regular basis.

Those that know me, know where my credibility stands, so like I said, do your worst, your personal attacks show you for what you are.


Hi Robin

We have come a long way. So the fish on the Saturday was not driven to Gauteng.

The funny thing is that if you honestly think that Aziz can get enough fish to drive to Gauteng then you have no insight into how the actual marketing of treknet (or handline) caught fish is sold, marketed or distributed.

I think that you seized on the name "Aziz" and added a few facts a long the way.

Robin, you had asked me to point out where you had been fibbing or making the story a bit more juicey. I agreed that I would gladly point this out.

It is not a "personal attack" when I respond to your request for details of the fibs that you have told.

You as a person and what you  write are two separate things.

Please keep in mind that I asked that we have a forthright and open discussion. 

The biggest challenge to this is where the story is embellished to the point that it is no longer meaningful or helpful.

 

As I said, my reference is to more than one occasion. What is sad is that you have been sitting on info that could have been 'enlightening' to a lot of people as to where this situation has gotten to. Instead you sat on it hoping to trap me. Basically showing that your interest is more of a selfish, and vengeful than constructive to the general forum. You would rather try to discredit and accuse members that don't share you opinion than contribute info that could be relevant.

Regardless of what you have been told by whoever, you clearly DO NOT have all the facts. The info given to me is 100% credible. You know what info I have and that is why you are trying so hard to discredit me. If you don't know what info I have, then you do not know nearly as much as you are trying to make out. There is no doubt about what is happening, and again if you want to call me a liar or a fibber (Again defaming a Sealine member) without proof, then that shows you for what you are.

Prove that I am lying or stop defaming me. You have a legal background, you should know what defamation is. Just because my opinion differs from yours and that my info differs from yours you clearly think that you can act with Carte-Blanche and defame me.

You already had one of your posts adjusted by Sealine Admin because of this behaviour, but clearly you have a lack of respect because you continue. Prove that I lied or stop defaming me with false accusations. 

RobinF
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jb2 wrote


It is not a "personal attack" when I respond to your request for details of the fibs that you have told.



 

Nice contradiction. 'Not personal' when I accuse you of lying in front of the entire forum without evidence?

Koper
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This has gone long enough in circles & is clearly going nowhere.

Thread Locked.

Admin "K"